Justin,
This is a very helpful and thoughtful interaction. I have thought about going to the the tour stop here in Louisville. I appreciate the way you explained this fundamental flaw in Rob Bell’s presentation. It’s unfortunate that the protesters outside used such a brash and unhelpful way to present what Rob was missing — that we are sinful.

Thanks, Justin. Very helpful and perceptive.
Now, I don’t think what you had was apple juice. After all, apple juice doesn’t have the remainders of a head. ;)

A gracious yet discerning post Justin, thanks.
On the comparatively irrelevant other issue I’m going for apple juice. If you look carefully the ‘head’ is condensation on the outside of the cup, partially removed by finger prints (IMHO)!

excellent post justin… i also have similar concerns about where rob stands on some fundamentals of the Christian faith and would very much like to see how your questions would be answered.

Justin,
I really liked most of your observations of the Rob Bell presentation. However I think your portrayal and contempt for the men outside was a bit hasty. Would you really want to exhibit your “turn or burn” moves on men who might be doing right when a person making a presentation just inside who might be doing diservice to the Christ on His cross in diminishing its importance and centrality in the gospel message?
What if they were telling the truth and Rob Bell did deny the need for substitutionary attonement through the shed blood of Christ? How would that effect what those men were saying about his presentation and the need to turn from it. I am sure everyone can feel good about going to it because the revenue raised will be donated to a good cause, but is the essence of what he is saying true? Or would it be true that people that adhere to a universal teaching of attonement without need for repentance, should they not come to the truth of the gospel and repent and believe on Christ would they face the complete wrath of God because of their sin?
You might want to check out this you tube video similar to the situation you described http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9XorvaC4qs
Thanks for all of your challenging posts. I really enjoyed the Dan Wallace presentation and your blog about it.

Great post Justin,
i can’t help but thing that only In rich, white, western america can a god with no wrath exist. I am sure Christian people in sudan right now who are losing loved ones to persecution are grateful for God’s justice and hatred for sin. I think it is proof positive that we need to be aware of culture, contextualize to culture, but not universalize our culture over the word of God. love your blog.

Justin,
I thought your posting was extremely well written. It was some of the best writing I have read regarding the topic of Christianity.
I think your feedback has so much value because I see it as more than just a critique of Rob Bell, but a surgical breakdown of the way our culture desires God to be. I’m not an expert, but to me it feels like more and more people want to believe there is a God, but refuse to believe there is any conflict between us. We want to believe there is bad in the world, but that we are not bad.
I feel as though I am not surprised that Rob Bell’s following has grown so rapidly. It caters to the people’s deep need of God, without having them own up to their sinfulness. It is a cruel irony that our insecurity keeps us from confessing our sins to Christ. And it is exactly that which gives us security.
Quickly! Regarding the comment on the “Men Outside” the event. I agree they very well may have been correct in their assertions of Rob Bell’s teachings. It is how they go about responding to it that I believe shows the true humility of one’s heart. There is a way to defend God’s truth without pride, self righteousness or anger. I think if you read Justin’s response to Bell’s talk you will see just that.

Thanks for this post. I have kept up a little with this tour and have recently read Velvet Elvis. I have to agree, I think if I sat down with good ole Rob we would have a lot in common. We would likely be frustrated with some of the same things and have some of the same hobby horses but I would want to ask the same three questions you posed!
My fear is that if I could sit down and ask him these three questions it wouldn’t be a very productive conversation. I am worried that I couldn’t get a straight answer on any of those questions. I cringe to even say that because I hate to speak for people . . . but what Bell has been saying lately sure makes me feel that way.

Michael, I know the question wasn’t addressed to me, but I’ll respond to it anyway.
Three words: truth in love
If Justin’s analysis of Bell’s presentation was accurate (and I have no reason to believe it wasn’t), then Bell was loving, but kinda light on at least some parts of the truth.
On the flip side, even if every last thing the guys outside was true, I’m sure it was VERY light on love.
Not knowing anyone’s heart, it’s impossible to know what the positive effects of Bell’s talk were. But I’d bet the farm that there were NO positive effects of the actions of those clowns outside.

Would it not be amazing if a speaker like Bell would put his gifts to work on the whole gospel. He is such an engaging speaker and presenter that it would be a great asset to the church. I love his emphasis on the love of God, however, like you, I am worried that he does so at the expense of our responsibilities toward our own lives of sinfulness. I am not in favour of the kind of ranting presentation of sin that those protesters outside gave, because they ONLY emphasised sin. In response to them, however, I would not want to swing the pendulum all the way over to the other side to emphasise ONLY grace. We need both to truly understand what is going on.
Great post!

I would be careful about condemning the “men outside” without having spoken with them in an attempt to discern their motives. It’s possible they were protesting out of self-righteous and proud hearts. But it’s also very possible they were doing so out of true humility — a humility that loves God more than the approval of man (which is rare in our culture). It might actually be pride to say that we can know their hearts just by looking at a picture and reading a few words about them.

Excellent post. The Gospel has no real impact or meaning until we fully realize why, indeed, it IS the Good News. That the Almighty would go to such lengths to redeem such unworthy creatures is stunning and, yes, amazing grace. Thanks for this; it’s very thoughtful and thorough.

He’s doing what others (Ed Young Jr, Rick Warren, et al) do: They universalize the atonement. All humans’ sins are paid for. This is the conclusion when the doctrine of sin is not clearly defined. Requires courage to do that.

Justin, I stumbled on your blog a while ago…great post. Your critique sounds very fair (i dont know i wasnt there) and the spirit of love is evident. Your questions for Rob Bell led me to go to the mars hill website, and under their “what we believe” section ( http://www.marshill.org/believe/ ) it seems like Bell subscribes to basically a christus victor/ liberation theology. When I read it, it sounds like sin is referred to as oppression, mostly in the corporate sense, not the individual sense and redemption is through Christ through kingdom living, defined as living to bless others especially the marginalized. from the webpage – “every single human being is born into bondage to sin. God wants to liberate us from sin…when we begin to use our resources, energy and power to preserve our own comfort and empire, we are sinning…[God] wants to liberate the world from physical, spiritual and cultural bondage. Most of us ahve been given great wealth, talent and energy. And God wants us to share it with others who don’t have enough. What if the Church began to understand that God wants to fix this entire planet?” I agree with you while this redemption-narrative plotline is definitely biblical, the gospel of personal justification is marginalized, which is the key to everything!

Great post. It helps me understand some statements Rob made about homosexuality from his previous book tour, sex god. If everyone is automatically “okay,” why would anyone need to turn from a sinful lifestyle.
BTW, that was definitely a beer in your hand. ;-)

“The one who will not use the rod hates his son, but the one who loves him disciplines him diligently.” Prov. 13:24
God’s love, without chastening and discipline and judgment, is not love at all.
The Bible says it makes us as illegitimate children, as bastard sons, should he not love us with those aspects of His nature.
You can’t say God loves you, but redefine love to mean “He really likes you alot and wants to dote on you all the time.” It simply isn’t true nor is it going to be helpful to any human being. He does have great affection toward his children (those who are born again,) but in that love He rebukes, disciplines, judges, withholds, etc. because He is infinitely wise and we are infinitely dumb by comparison, and He knows what is best for us, as a good father does.
In case you have been deceived, and I do not say this at all jokingly, we WILL still be facing God on judgment day guys, every single one of us, and we will be giving account for our lives-it’s still in the Bible (God’s word doesn’t change.)
For such a scholarly fellow in theological studies, Rob sure seems to miss such elementary foundational principles.
I never knew truth was open for interpretation until he said so. I wonder, does he let his children run out in front of cars- since it may not be true they really would be run over? I mean, may be it’s not REALLY what would happen. Maybe, all these years, we’ve just been interpreting gravity and heavy moving objects coming at small kids in the road at 55 miles an hour all wrong. Does he test out that theory?
Also, for all who believe that Rob Bell is “such a gifted speaker” – it may be so, but I believe he uses the gift of serious manipulation and soothsaying. He manipulates truth, reshapes it out of his intellect to sound clever and eloquent, and uses it to further manipulate your mind to stay focused on what he wants you to be thinking about- instead of allowing the Holy Spirit to reveal truth to your heart.
He does not worship the same God as true born again evangelical Biblical Christians – he worships the god that he created in his mind to suit his lifestyle, his ministry, and himself- which is idolatry.
At best, we ought to pray for him, his cohorts, and his followers to be convicted by the Holy Spirit to repent and put their trust in the real Jesus, who died for their SIN, and to walk out their faith with fear and trembling before the Almighty Triune God, by His grace, because of His everlasting love for us.
I have no intention to judge Rob Bell in any way other than to judge the fruits of his ministry, the lies in his books and his numerous videos, etc.
I believe God wants Rob to go to heaven and NOT to hell, and that He loves him very very much. However, Rob’s false teaching is offensive to God- He was aware of the truth at one point and he defiled it, spreading this mishmash confusion of universalism, self love, and rubbish meology.

Brent,
Thanks for your kind reply.
I also believe Justin’s analysis of Rob Bell is accurate from the perspective from a member of the audience and an audience to his books, sermons and videos.
I truly think the Holy Spirit of God has testified to Justin, and many more that have commented here on this post that something about it just isn’t right. That the Crux of the Gospel message of Christ being the personal propitiation for our sin was lacking. That while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. To leave people in a state of belief that Christ died to redeem the whole world and yet leave out the response to “What are we to do?” (Acts 2:37) leaves the people in a worse state than what they might have come in with God is not angry with you. You are okay. We need to just save the planet and help each other. To me that is not loving in anyway. I think the United Nations is doing that too. What is loving is standing like Peter on Pentecost (Acts 2), proclaiming Christ as Messiah, our guilt at slaying that Christ, Proclaiming His resurrection, Wrath and promise to make His enemies His footstool, and once again in vs.36 our guilt in His execution.
I wonder if any of us had passed by that day in Jerusalem would we have wagged our heads and said “Jerk! That is totally unloving.” “All that talk of wrath and our guilt is not going to bring anyone to your Messiah, maybe we should just give them the old “turn or burn”.
Aside from that I have listened to almost every sermon from the Mars Hill website posted in the last year. I did this because I wanted to be informed and I was growing uneasy about the teaching that was coming from some of these very popular books, videos and resources. Also because of Rob Bell’s association with Doug Pagitt, and Brian Mclaren. Both of these men, and others in the Emergent Conversation, however loving and pleasant, hip, relevant they may seem are slowly drifting and mutilating the faith and gospel presented in Scripture. Some possibly denying or not affirming the Virgin Birth of Christ, another questioning the Deity of Christ or saying its importance in the Gospel needs to be re-examined. The move by some of these in questioning homosexuality as something that equates to it is time the church takes a new perspective on sexuality and re-imagine it is very disturbing. He also allows these men to come and fill his pulpit or teach those entrusted to his care.
Mark Driscoll gave a good presentation at the Convergent Confrence in September. He gives a good testimony about his involvement with the growing emergent movement and his knowledge of these men’s beliefs and teachings, including Rob Bell. Here is the link: http://sebts.edu/Convergent/GeneralInfo/
You would have to just go back a couple of months in their sermon archive to listen to Brian Mclaren and Doug Pagitt. If you go back to around last April you would a clearer view on what Rob believes about Hell, what it is and who goes there, the return of Christ, the Rapture, ect. Some of it doesn’t quite match the doctrinal statements posted on the church website.
Lastly, you are correct in that if the men outside did not present the death of Christ on the Cross as the only way to escape the coming wrath of God at the least they would not be loving and just be an annoyance.
Yet if they had done it in love and with the truth then I have to conclude that they have followed just as Paul said in 1 Cor 4:10 We are fools for Christ’s sake, but you are wise in Christ. We are weak, but you are strong. You are held in honor, but we in disrepute.
I would not bet the farm yet, just maybe that Chia pet.
Thanks for the lively discussion.

I used to feel kind of bad about myself because I thought God was angry with me for trying to ignore Him all my life. Now I don’t feel bad about myself anymore because God isn’t angry with me. I guess that means I can keep ignoring Him.

Justin,
Thanks for posting this. Very interesting read, and from what I can tell a fair critique. I have a friend who is going to be attending Bell’s presentation in Indy, and I’ll pass this onto him and see what he thinks afterwards.
Big Chris

Michael
On Driscoll, I’m already there. As a self-confessed Driscoll fanboy, I listened to that message some time ago.
I hear what you’re saying, and maybe I’m biased because I grew up around a lot of Pharisee-ism, but that sign just SCREAMS to me, “I thank thee, that I am not as other men are”.

Michael
On Driscoll, I’m already there. As a self-confessed Driscoll fanboy, I listened to that message some time ago.
I hear what you’re saying, and maybe I’m biased because I grew up around a lot of Pharisee-ism, but that sign just SCREAMS to me, “I thank thee, that I am not as other men are”.

I know there has been a lot of discussion about the protesters outside. Their level of effectiveness in what they are doing I won’t comment on. The issue of whether or not it is Godly I think comes down to the state of their heart.
I would venture to say even those who made jokes about these people in reality want the best for them. I won’t speak for others, but I feel as though whenever evangelism contains human anger, it is unGodly or prideful. It disturbed me the most when I clicked the youtube link a commenter provided that, in what I saw, was justification for “flexing” on other people in the name of the father, because Jesus himself did that.
I actually had a lady a year ago justify some anger she had in her heart towards “sinners” with that story from scripture. I was too young a Christian at the time to bring this point up then so I’ll do it now. JESUS is GOD, we are not. That type of table flipping, finger pointing, “you’re gonna burn in hell” anger is OK for Him only. We on the other hand never have the right to harbor anger. “He who is angry at his brother has committed murder”. We are taught not to offer up any sacrifices to God until we have let go of our anger towards our brother. Jesus forgave people’s sins in the street and we don’t try to copy that for the same reason.
I don’t want to judge those people because I don’t know them. Maybe there is no anger in their hearts and they are just simply trying to convey God’s just anger while at the same time giving the good news. I’m just concerned with this idea that if you’re not doing what those people outside are doing it’s not real love. It’s soft and it’s ignoring God’s wrath. Justin for example has told me to my face, at great personal discomfort that areas in my life were sin and greatly angered God. That I needed Jesus in order to rectify those areas. But his posture and energy was that of a fellow sinner, he doesn’t tell me through a bull horn outside my house, wearing a shirt whose largest word is BURN.
Maybe there is no pride or personal anger in what these people are doing. But I wonder if they would consider wearing a sweater or holding a sign that said, “I’m the worst sinner of all, but Jesus saved me from death and he can save you too” just as Paul did.
We may disagree on some points but I get the feeling that many of the readers of this blog agree on the most important thing, Jesus! God bless you all and see you at the supper of the lamb. Pass the gravy.

Hiya,
Very Even, kind, discerning post. But I would think that because in reading Velvet Elvis, reading along, mmhmm, yes, mmhhmmm, hey!ummmmhuh? I came to a few points where I felt he made a summative statement and I found myself disagreeing with the summary of multiple points with which, individually, I felt I could agree.
In fact your review read as I felt while reading his book.
Thanks for helping with the discussion in such a kind manner
Jason

Everyone, thanks for the thoughtful, mostly humbly-stated comments.
-So far, I think the most thought provoking comment comes from Eric.
-So far, I’m shocked that there have been some comments (both here and in a few of the 75 or so blogs between America and Australia that have linked to this post) defending the bullhorn, “turn or burn” guys.
-Answer to the beverage question: beer. I do, however, appreciate a good glass of apple juice when the mood is right.

It’s pretty obvious what’s wrong with Rob Bell’s message. 1, he’s not saved, and 2. he’s not saved.
Maybe Rob Bell should have taken the advice from the people outside, because clearly according to Scripture, if he doesn’t turn he’s going to burn.
Mt 7:13-20:”“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.”
“For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.” 2 Tim 4:3-4.
“Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;” Acts 20:28-29

I appreciate your thoughts on the tour. I am attending tonight’s presentation in Dallas.
I guess my response would be that we cannot forget who the audience is. Although Christians may want to come, I would say, Rob’s tours are generally targeted toward people outside the church – on the fringe. Take the tagline: the gods aren’t angry – why humans invented religion to make themselves feel better – that is not a line that necessarily attracts theologians. So, that coupled with the adult beverages I think provide a sample of the target audience. An audience that knows about sin, and has been told God is angry at them BECAUSE of their sin. That is not scriptural.

Kevin, I think your comment is lame. I think your judgment of Rob’s salvation status, a guy you don’t even know, is immensely presumptous and lacking a spirit of humility.
Brian, I think it would be good to think through your comment a bit more. Saying that’s it’s “not scriptural” that God is angry at sin/sinners who haven’t come to trust in Christ and his cross work is a rather unscriptural stance.

Justin, I’m judging Rob Bell’s salvation based on Scripture, and Jesus said you will know them by their fruits. Rob Bell is a Ravenous wolf saying the way is wide. What was it Paul said about if someone comes to you preaching another gospel.
Also this examination of Velvet Elvis may interest you and others: http://www.sohmer.net/Velvet_Elvis.pdf
It includes:
Heretical Errors:
Wrong View of the Trinity.
Wrong View of the Exclusivity of Christianity.
Wrong View of the State of Mankind
Wrong Gospel.
Aberrant Theology:
Wrong View of Jesus’ Purpose.
Wrong View of Heaven and Hell.
Wrong View of Rabbinic Judaism.
Wrong hermeneutics:

I think you are critiquing Rob a little too much.
If you take a step back and look at the whole of the message, Rob was saying that “since people think God is angry at them, these people continue to offer sacrifices over and over again to make peace with God.” We still do it today.
The goal was to press this truth into people over and over so that they would stop trying to earn favor with God and rest in Jesus’ sacrifice on our behalf. To me, this talk emphasized Jesus’ work and convicted us to stop trying to take away from the work of the cross.
I think “the fall” was emphasized by the fact that everyone in the world is trying to get back to God, bu we are unable to because we don’t trust in Jesus’ sacrifice, but continue to make our own.

Justin, if you knew your Greek, you’d know that “you will know them by their fruits” actually translates better to “Kevin will be able to unequivocally judge what God has chosen”.

Kevin, I’ll have to check out your link. Thanks for providing it.
John, thanks for your thoughts. I agree that, for a Christian, Rob’s message did offer a helpful critique of “religion” (trying to live a good life in order to earn God’s acceptance). However, since this wasn’t sent against the backdrop of the the great problem (sin/separation from God/being under God’s wrath against sin) that people are falsely attempting to fix with “religion,” the problem that can only be fixed by the gospel, I think Rob’s message was not fully biblical and therefore misleading for non-Christians and inadequately nourishing for Christians.
John 3:36 is just one example of what I’m talking about: “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not…the wrath of God remains on him.” What does Rob do with that verse, and with many other passages like it? Out of LOVE for non-Christians, you’ve got to tell the truth that God is perfectly holy and, therefore, justly angry at sin and so committed to his own glory and the good of his people that his wrath will fall upon sinners who refuse to turn from their sin and trust in the sinless Son. I just think that’s so basic. It’s what the church has taught for 2,000 years.

Guys,
Its so easy for us to pick at one another but where does judging one another come in?
Saying who is saved and who is not definitely crosses that line. God sees straight into our heart. We men & women don’t.
If we are concerned about the teaching of Rob Bell, pray for him. Pray, do not judge as you will be judged.

Thank you so much for taking the time to write this!

I Was going to leave my comments as they are above…
I am curious, did the talk/message/chat from Bell leave you with the impression that religion was Man’s idea? I guess I think of Cain, and Abel with their offerings, (Gen 4, Rom 9) or even of Noah (Gen 8:20 &f)(and, are we not all descendants of Noah as well as Adam?) and I have always understood that the idea of offerings was God’s way of setting the stage for Christ’s atonement on the cross – as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world He was laying forth a pathway that, when Christ comes along, man can say “aha!” a permanent sacrifice! A once-and-for-all covering of my sins!
I have not gone to the tour – I just wanted clarification – I have always been under the impression that a sacrifice being necessary was God’s idea – because God, in His infinite holiness required blood… am I wrong? Is not all religion really a bastardization of a relationship with the one true God, that HE established with man, when He created the earth?

Some of the comments to this blog entry turn my stomach.
God is a perfect parent. He loves all of us. As Rob said, sacrifices were made for US, not for God.
Sin, my friends, is simply the opposite of God’s plan for our lives. Each parent makes a “plan” for their children. The problem, however, is that free will allows us to decide not to follow the “plans” our parents make. This includes God.
If one of our children, when entering adulthood, decides to shoot heroine in his/her arms, and we’ve done everything we can to stop them, there might come a point when we can no longer watch them destroy their life. It would hurt to much to watch that happen. Likewise, isn’t it possible that the reason God can’t look on sin simply because it hurts too much?
I like Rob’s approach to sin: don’t give it attention. Why not? Because if you focus on LOVE, the sin problem takes care of itself. If you fall in love with someone you want to do everything in your power to please them. If people fall in love with Jesus, truly in love, their sins go away because they no longer WANT to do them.
You would never want to marry someone you had to scare into loving you. God doesn’t want to marry a “bride” that has to be scared into loving HIM either.
Rob is part of a movement that is changing the world. The XXXChurch ministry, which is based out of Rob’s church, changed MY life with a message of love. Being raised in a legalistic, “hellfire and brimstone” type church, I hated Christians all my life. I didn’t believe in God or the Bible. But XXXChurch was used by God to change all that. How? By telling me there was nothing I could ever do to make God love me any less. Love wins. Love wins. Love wins.
There is no need to focus on sin. Love wins. Jesus didn’t come into the world to condemn the world, but to save it through His sacrifice. Let’s teach love.
Love.
Wins.

Woody… there’s a fine line between judging which is often translated as “condemning” and judging with a view to rightly discerning truth and appropriate actions in response to the truth.
We are not to judge one another in a sense that we are not to condemn one another. We are not the ones with the right to condemn. God is.
However, scripture clearly teaches that we are to judge one another in a sense that we are to help one another removing specks from our eyes and to help keep the church pure (removing unrighteousness from our midst). To do so requires a lot of humility, and an inward examination of our motives FIRST before we attempt to address “stuff” with others.
Scripture also teaches clearly what will happen in the “last days” where spiritual leaders will not all be “right” in a sense that they will not be God sent. Some will appear so, sound so, and our ears will be pleasantly tickled as we hear what we WANT to hear.
Not all of those teachers are from God. So we have to discern rightly those to which we should listen and those which we should ignore and occasionally those which we should confront or correct (if we’re ever in a position to do so).
It’s a tough position. Discerning right from wrong and truth from error is going to require help from the Holy Spirit and from investing time in God’s Word which doesn’t change.
Satan was a master at taking truth and twisting it ever so slightly when he tempted Christ. Christ’s response? Correct the erroneous use of scripture with proper use of scripture. And we can do better without an intimate knowledge of scripture? I doubt it.
About love winning (Donny). Yes. Love wins in the end. But, judgment still comes in an eternally permanent way for everyone who doesn’t have Christ. Justice also wins in the end. Sin has consequences. We all have a choice of one of two paths. (1) Accept Christ’s substitutionary redemption for our personal sins, and enjoy an eternity in the presence of God, enjoying his love; or (2) Reject Christ’s payment and choose to attempt our own way into God’s presence… which will be futile and eternally rejected by a just and righteous God who has the right to make the rules of consequences.
Anything other than accepting Christ’s payment is rejection. Deferring until a later time is rejection. Contemplating without accepting is rejection. Outright opposition is rejection. Rejection may have several shades, but they’re all in the dark side of the color spectrum.
Light repels darkness of all shades.
Teach love? By all means scream it from the mountain tops. Proclaim it in the valleys. But, to ignore the responsibility to respond rightly to God’s demonstration of His love for us by individually accepting Christ as our substitute and Saviour… can have fatally eternal consequences.

Hello Everyone,
I very much appreciated the well written critique of Bell’s event. I would like to answer the question by “BRENDT” as to whether or not I would wear a sweater that says I’m the worst sinner in the world . . .” Yes I would, and if you would like to mak it for me, I will send you my address. :) I often say much the same thing when I am preaching, and I am certain that I said that several times during the Rob Bell event.
I would like to share with all of you that my friends and I have, and had, no hatred in our hearts for Rob Bell, or anyone at that event. I can understand why you would think that we might have, but if you would have talked to us (like several people did do) you would have found us to be rather calm. We would have also Biblically articulated why we were there, and why we disagree with Bell. I will not take the space to do that here, because many have already done that in this thread. However, I will say that one of the reasons that we did what we did the way we did, was because many people are taken in by Bell’s sophism. We feel that they need be warned, because their souls are on the line. With the stakes so high, and the likelihood of them stumbling on a blog to find the truth so low, we were willing to have people think us fools so that they might be warned.
I would like to happily share with you that we had several conversations with people who came up to us and said that they had never really heard of Bell before and wanted to know why we thought he was wrong. We were able to share with them, and they left ready to Biblically and thoughtfully consider what they were about to hear.
I feel that I have written more that I intended to. I apologize if I am coming off defensive, that was not my intention.
God Bless

Justin thanks for the digest of the night, and some post-night critical thoughts. I thought you walked charitably and openly with the way you shared your concerns. I think Eric’s point is a good one. Having not seen the Rob Bell event I’m silent as to issuing an opinion of Rob’s views on sin…curious what he said about Hebrews to be sure, but open to waiting and finding out for myself. The guys is a communication phenom, and as you said he has an evident love for scripture and contextualization.
If Rob missed Eric’s point about the cultural locatedness of our white, suburbia that’s really unfortunate…better stay away from Bosnia Bell, or if you enter it then re-contextualize your presentation. Makes me thankful for guys like Miroslav Volf and his “Exclusion and Embrance” as well as Hans Boersma’s “Violence and the Hospitality of the Cross.”
Thanks again for the post here JB.
Blessings,
Tony Stiff

Not sure why my name got put in “QUOTES”, but I didn’t say anything about sweaters — I’m getting overheated just thinking about it. I think the question was posed by Francis.

Justin H,
I think you’re giving Rob way too much credit. He doesn’t have the power to put anyone’s soul on the line with the words he speaks. Salvation comes by faith in Jesus Christ, and Rob Bell has received his salvation through Jesus.
It’s okay to have a different interpretation of scripture. That has been going on since the beginning of time. It will go on until the end of time. If you also proclaim Jesus Christ, I am absolutely certain you and Rob share the foundational beliefs… the ones that actually matter.
As a former porn producer of 9 years, I passed by every picketer standing outside the porn conventions I attended each year. I’d wave to most of them with one finger. They accomplished nothing with their protests.
What got inside my head, however, was this group call XXXChurch (which is based out of Rob’s church in Grand Rapids). They had a booth set up inside with us and they were telling us that there is nothing any of us could ever do to make God love us any less. I gave them a lot of crap for 2 years, yet they responded with love.
See, John 3:16 doesn’t tell us that in order to attain salvation we must believe in Jesus AND follow the path of legalism. It tell us quite clearly how to achieve salvation. Once we’ve achieved that salvation and fall in love with Jesus our lives truly change. Not because someone tells us what to do, but because it becomes evident to us how life should be lived. Through the Holy Spirit. God calls us to be fishers of men. We catch ‘em, HE cleans ‘em.
Too many Christians make attempts to remove the speck from the eyes of others. That needs to stop. It is not our place. There are very few who God trusts to counsel others about their lifestyles. I seriously doubt any of those posting in this thread are of any authority whatsoever to pass along spiritual advice to others.
We all, however, are definitely capable of sharing what God has done in our lives. We’re capable of being walking billboards for God.
Instead of bad mouthing Rob, why not take the meat and spit out the bones? God’s once used a jackass to do His work. Do you think it’s possible he could use Rob Bell? I do.
Rob himself will tell you not to blindly accept everything he says.
His message was great. The problem only lies with those who are offended that he didn’t do things they way THEY think he should have. Instead of holding signs telling everyone about the problems with Rob Bell, perhaps the sign should have read “I AM THE PROBLEM!”

Hi. I stumbled upon your blog after looking up info on the latest Rob Bell tour. I do find your blog insightful and helpful, however, some of the comments have been a bit over-the-top. How can anyone, based on the limited information we actually know about Rob Bell’s true beliefs, make the claim to know that he’s not saved. I don’t know about you, but I can’t really attest to anyone else but me being saved.
And like you said, he “left it open” for the universalist perspective to be adopted. But he didn’t say that’s what he believes. Maybe he didn’t focus on the problem of sin & the need of repentance because he knows that only mainly Christians are coming to hear him – people who already know this fact.
Good thoughts, and I really hope that Rob finds this and replies!

Great GREAT comment, Elgin.

Just went to hear Bell last night.
Have written about his talk/performance/monologue here:
Islam and Christianity
http://islamdom.blogspot.com/2007/11/rob-bell-gods-arent-angry.html

Thanks for the blog. My two closest friends saw Rob Bell Friday night in Dallas. We were shocked to hear a denial of substitutionary atonement and what sounded like universalism. I just finished typing up a 4 page reaction to his message to present to our church staff here in dallas. I heard you may have the audio, is that true. I’m trying to determine if he made any other connections with Jesus’ death outside of “Jesus died to abolish a violent sacrificial system”. Did he give any other reason Jesus died? Thanks again, Rob

Donny, I’m so thankful for your conversion. What a story you have. I agree with much of what you said above. I actually agree so much with what you had to say about the importance of God’s love that I disagree with what you had to say about sin (not giving it attention/air time, etc.).
I think you’d agree with me that what makes God’s love for his children so incredible is that even though we didn’t deserve God’s love, even though we deserved God’s punishment for our sin, God the Father loved us so much that on the cross he punished his sinless Son in our place. Without such a backdrop in view (the doctrine of sin), the gospel ceases to be GOOD news and becomes, simply, news.
Rob, no, I don’t have audio from Bell’s message. I wonder how that word got spread…

Donny, I too share your concern with Christians who feel they are better than others or worse, judge others. Righteous finger pointing definitely takes away from what following Christ is all about. It especially burns the most when it happens with Christians who have positions of great influence, almost representing believers to the public.
I’m so stoked to hear that you have put your faith in Christ. I’ve been to a triple X event and it was great. I downloaded their software and it was a big part of me kicking pornography. Just got married a month ago.
Your comment earlier on different interpretations of scripture and it not really mattering as long as we all proclaim Christ struck a cord with me. I hear where you are coming from on that, but I’d humbly ask you to consider that in some cases, it matters a whole lot.
Yes sometimes blogs like this seem like bickering over tiny details, but Satan is real. And scripture teaches us that he is the master at taking truth, and adding tiny lies that can change it’s entire meaning. Mormons proclaim Christ… Jehovah’s Witnesses proclaim Christ… and in my opinion, their interpretations of scripture can lead away from this great Savior of ours.
I agree that Eric’s post was the most thought provoking. Culture is such a huge culprit as a barrier to God’s truth. Most of my family that is not saved have a religion just cus it was a part of their culture and they were born into it.
One last thing. Reconciler your post was so tight! Reminds me that my writing has a long way to go. Hit the nail on the head to say the least.

Last night I attended “The gods Aren’t Angry” gathering. I have to say that I absolutely disagree with your assessment of Rob’s speaking. All the stuff you just regurgitated is stuff we’ve all heard a thousand times before. Just because Rob didn’t address the obvious, doesn’t mean he doesn’t believe it. He gave an unique look at Scriptures and history that opened the eyes to many.
He in no way did any injustice to God or the truth of His personality. You make God out to sound like the God the guys outside the event were screaming about. Which way is it?
You can’t bash Rob’s message by saying all the things he didn’t mention. To do so, would be like me bashing your post for not mentioning the exodus of the Israelites, or the beattitudes. It’s totally irellevant.

Interesting discussion here. I love it when people trot out the and “judge not lest ye be judged” and “who are you to judge another man’s servant” and by extension “who are you to judge me?” arguments. I appreciate the post that connected judging with condemning – that was insightful by reconciler. There’s a fine line to walk between “discerning of spirits” and “condemning.”
As I peruse the comments I see two points of view that jump out at me – one of the heart and one of the head. The heart says “connect me with Jesus and that’s all that matters – I want love” and the head says “here’s the explanation – here’s why – here’s what the Bible says about that here, here, here, and here.” One without the other is useless – we become Biblically illiterate or we become Pharisees (my personal struggle). Where do you think the balance lies on this topic? I think that it lies within Buzzard’s most recent post.

Instead of trying to decide if Rob Bell is saved or not, lets deal with the scripture… how do you interpret what Paul means when he says “all things” are reconciled to Christ (Col 1:20)? This is the verse Rob points to very often. His common quote – which he uses in this tour – is “and if you look in the greek the meaning for ‘all things’ is …. ‘all things’.”

I think there has to be a framework for it Peterzog – taken within the context of the rest of Scripture… All things cannot mean “all things” in the literal sense – ie. God is not about to reconcile Himself to Satan and the demons. I am still struggling with my understanding of this verse, and will leave the rest of the handling of it to more capable hands…
I would still love someone’s thoughts on my earlier comment (Sat, Nov 17)….

I went to the Hard Rock Live last night to see Rob Bell. I thought the speech was
excellent. I like what he had to say about repentance the most. He said we
repent because we now (after you become a Christian) understand the
ultimate reality in Christ. To not repent and seek after God after being
saved just doesn’t make any sense. He warns us that many use religion to
hold people in bondage and use it as a means to take advantage of them.
Thats what the Sadducees and Pharisees were doing in Jesus time. Its also
happening today even in Christian circles. Bell was focusing in the fact
that Jesus Christ has made the ultimate act of redemption and that nothing
we can do can change that. Christ has made peace for us with God when he
was sacrificed. Because of this God is not angry with His creatures. The
part where Bell needed to be clear in was that Christ has made peace for
those who love God or will love God in this lifetime. Thats where it gets
a bit cloudy. I didn’t hear any heresy but I believe he should have
mentioned the “particular redemption” that God offers His creatures through
Christ. It is possible to see how one may walk away thinking they are ok
with God when they really are not. I don’t know Bell’s intentions but I’d
like to think that he is not purposely trying to teach universalism. I say
this based on the other Nooma videos I have seen. Now Bell did mention
that there was really only one God and that only through Jesus do we have
peace with God. This dispels any notion that Bell is teaching that you can
believe in any religion and you are ok. All in all I thought the message
was good. The danger is when people try to read more into what was
actually said. I’m not saying to throw away your thinking cap. I would
make sure we take what He says in context and see if it stands up to the
ultimate truth found in the bible. If it stands great, if it doesn’t throw
it out.
God Bless,
Christianity 2.0

I think the key verse in the reconciled debate, is verse 23. Depending on your translation it says…”provided, of course, that you continue in your trusting, grounded and steady, not letting yourselves be moved away from the hope offered in the Good news you heard.”
Our reconciliation is available and possible if our trust remains in Christ, Period. And I know from hearing other things Rob Bell says and writes, he would agree with this assessment.
I saw the talk last week and thought it was brilliant and thought provoking at the same time. After all we are all here talking about it, and I think this is the stuff Rob Bell wants to see from his messages…topics and talks that provoke us all to search the depths of God’s heart for the answers. And good healthy dialogue among Christ followers that make us all think more clearly about what we believe no matter what faith tradition we hold to. And the key to faith is not worrying so much about the answers, but understanding that as we search for the answers we will find Christ; and in Him all the answers reside, even if they remain a secret in this day and age, in the age to come we will know all there is to know!!!
Good chatting with you all! Thanksgiving to our God!
Tony

I have come to notice that there are an infinite amount of ways to manipulate the Gospel into being about simply “loving God, community, God’s forgiveness of all creatures, loving God at some point in your life, being a good person, caring for the poor, showing love to others etc” in order to avoid the part where we come to terms with the fact that we are dirty rotten sinners from birth, desperate and otherwise doomed without Jesus.
Prior to being saved, I had gone to great lengths to avoid that process which felt like a root canal to my pride. Dodging repentance and the intensity of our sin has authored some interesting Gospel interpretations.
“Being a Christian means understanding the ultimate reality in Christ” – Sounds like one of them.
Nicole, I am not sure regarding your question. However as I was reading your post I found myself agreeing with you. Much like how Moses brought his people out of slavery and into salvation was a small metaphor for Christ, in my opinion so too is the idea of sacrifice in order to atone for sins. However, I believe it depends on how religion is defined. My definition of religion is not a very positive one, to me it represents our pride in thinking we can make things OK with God through our actions. I don’t really see God creating THAT definition per say… Sorry I couldn’t be of more help.

I really enjoyed reading your point of view. I seen the tour in Washington DC this past weekend and enjoyed it very much. I listen to Rob Bell A LOT; messages on marshill.org, noomas, I have been to mars hill church for a seminar. Rob is a very gifted speaker and very knowledgeable about the scriptures, but still sometimes I wonder why he doesn’t seem to portray the whole picture all at once. I hate it when people bash him for doing things a little different (which I am not accusing you of) but like those people outside the venue in the pictures above. One thing I will say about the man is that people who would never set foot in a church to hear the truth about God’s love hear it through Rob Bell.

For the record, the people outside of this event were there to judge and judge only. In fact they looked me in the eyes and said said I was going to follow Rob Bell to hell if I didn’t repent, and then accused me of “you honor your wife more than you do God”. Funny thing though…none of these people actually spoke to me first, as far as they knew I was there to write a rubatal of what Rob Bell said; but in all of there wisdom they just threw out the accusations and judegment upon me and my wife and that was it! These guys are really good for the kingdom of God. Is there anyone who can show me this is what Jesus would be doing if he were here on the earth today?-

Not Jesus – maybe John the Baptist : )
I do not think it accomplishes anything in our society… I cannot imagine anyone that’s about to enter the doors, pause, and ask themselves if the angry people outside have a point… I wonder sometimes, if it is not merely a self-righteous, misguided attempt to prove one’s love and passion for God… as though picketing (and subsequently taking the heat for holding up signs) is a new form of self-inflicted martyrdom.

I’m sure it’s some of that, but the truth is these guys think they are right and everyone else that thinks differently are wrong and in danger of hell!! Becasue we all know that the requirements for heaven is getting everything right!(PLEASE!) I’ve encountered these types before and even chatted over coffee with some to help them see just how bad it is for the gospel and the God they claim to love to scream at and judge the average person they have never spoken to or know anything about! Most of these guys I have been able to have an honest discussion about the issues have at some point have come to grips with the fact that they have acted like [Tony, I deleted your cuss word here, don't cuss on my blog] in the past with their harsh judgement of people, churches, and other doctrines not like theirs. They are not evil at heart, just lost in the land of knowitall!
Peace

We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.
And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority.
Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—a beast without speech—who spoke with a man’s voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.
These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”

Justin,
Would you comment on Godbreathed’s post. Especially on the part of scripture he posted that says “it is better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them”
A reader may confuse it as meaning if you know and accept Jesus but slip up once again in old sins/habits/addictions, than it’s better to have never known and accept Jesus in the first place.

So what of the post from Godbreathed, just curious what side your one here :)

Tony, I don’t understand your comment–are you asking me how I think the comment from “GodBreathed”(people need to use their real names–I get the clever reference, but come on) relates to Rob Bell? The “GodBreathed” post is a quotation of 1 Peter 1:16-2:22. I think the point this person is attempting to make is that they think Bell’s message falls under this false prophet/teacher category.
I think my post is clear in expressing my significant concerns with Bell’s message.

J~
Excellent analysis and I agree with you on all points. There are several points lacking possibly and I do wonder about some of Rob’s views. On the other side of the coin, and I’m sure someone has pointed this out…I didn’t take the time to read all the comments, what really struck me was near the end. Rob really emphasized the inadequacy of our sacrifices. As one who sees a very disgusting display of performance around the church today I thought the message made a strong point…especially towards our hidden gods that we still try to please. I suppose one needs to consider his audience and what parts he intended to leave exposed or unexplained. In our audience it was mostly christians who needed to hear more about what truly pleases God and the true meaning of repentance and reconciliation…sure this convo could go on forever – but, cheers that Rob is taking the time to tour and bring light to the scripture in a creative fashion
let’s continue to pray those seeds are healthy and bear God honoring fruit even if delivered in incomplete ways

Justin,
Thanks, I got that he was quoting 1 Peter, my point or question about the comment was in search of an opinion from him about the tour. This is a blog…I guess I expect people to share their opinions, views, etc. I understood he was accusing Bell of false prophecy (I’m not that ignorant); I guess I wanted to hear his view of the talk! Quote a scripture, but good lord give us some explanation of your view here! The reference to 1 Peter opens up a whole can of worms for anyone who wants to put that on Rob Bell; or anyone who preaches anything for that matter! I think SOME people on this blog are the type of people Jesus had problems with. Some seem to assume they have the gospel nailed; they have perfected the art of interpretation of the scriptures and their “clear” meaning. Accordingly those who present some slightly different ideas; true followers of Christ who want people to think outside of a western culture version of the Christian status quos are always labeled false prophets. I get that Rob and many, many, many others don’t follow the angry God who hates all sinners, and elects a special few to join Him in heaven plot. I get that if I used the measuring stick a lot of other people use for declaring false prophets I would hold that label above many believers. I think the concept of total depravity is not a true biblical understanding of God’s creation of humanity, I think the idea that Jesus came, died, and His blood is only for a limited amount of people and only they can and will (or have to) receive His grace because they are chosen, is not a true biblically supported idea. I hear and read hyper-Calvinists calling other respected formed pastors and teachers false prophets all of the time because they (respected reformed guys) teach that sinners can actually hear the word of God; they can believe in Jesus, and they can pray because God works in the heart of sinners! These guys are persecuted for teaching this stuff and labeled as false prophets! STUPID!! My point is this…do I put friends and others who hold to these beliefs as false prophets, no; do I wish the beliefs didn’t exist yes, but I will not throw them all into a category that claims I know their heart, and hell will be their home!
Funny thing is, this is why Jesus was crucified. He challenged the way Jews of His day approached God, they way they prayed, looked at other nations, tribes, people, Jesus turned the religious and political world upside down and they killed Him for it. They spit on him, claimed He was filled with a devil, even accused Him of blasphemy. So I get that a lot of people have opinions about Rob and others unlike them as False prophets, my point here…this is a blog about the talk Rob gives on the tour, and if your opinion is not based on the talk and just regurgitating what others say about followers of Christ outside their traditions without hearing, reading, or studying for themselves what the whole story is, then its ignorance at work.
Peace
Tony

Tony, you commented, disapprovingly, about readers of this blog that, “Some seem to assume they have the gospel nailed; they have perfected the art of interpretation of the scriptures and their ‘clear’ meaning.”
It concerns me that this concerns you. I certainly share frustration alongside you over the occasional comment here that is expressed without a spirit of humility. I want this blog to be know for humility. AND, I want this blog to be know for its orthodoxy. Humble Orthodoxy is the goal. Contrary to your comment,this blog stands for having the gospel “nailed” and for the conviction that the Scriptures do have a “clear meaning.” I don’t think that’s a prideful stance, I think it’s a biblical stance, an orthodox stance, a humble stance. I believe we are a broken enough people and God is so kind, that he had to speak very clearly to us in his Word. He has communicated a very clear gospel message to us.
As for your discussion of Reformed vs. Arminian theology, I didn’t even discuss these issues in my post. As I shared in paragraph three of my post, the concerns I expressed regarding Bell’s message are common ground concerns shared by people of many different theological camps, Reformed and Arminian.

I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel.
They did not receive the love of the truth… for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie.

Justin, so glad that you posted this. There’s a new book, “Surpremacy of Christ in a Postmodern World” by Piper (excellent book by the way) that addressed some of Rob’s theology and how it contridicts what the Bible says. It’s sad to think that all those people here in SF heard the wrong Gospel message.

Justin,
The points I made that you call Arminianism vs. Calvinism were not based on either view per say but to point out that false prophecy is declared all too often by both sides, heck all sides. So again my point is you say your orthodoxy is humble, and I grant you the fact that your bog is much more gracious than other reformed folks I have read, but if Free-Will is taught in a church, some “reformed” folks would call that heresy, and the deliverer a false prophet. So where can you draw a line that says they are wrong in their “orthodoxy” but not a false prophet?
To the other points; if the message was so crystal clear, why are there so many variations? I’m not denying Christ his atonement, His death, Resurrection, etc. But there sure seems to be too many different variations and interpretations of an awful lot of scriptures for you to humbly say you have it ALL nailed!
I think it takes more faith to say all of the answers are not crystal clear, but one thing is true, perfect, and right, and that alone is Jesus!
Tony

Justin & Tony…
Nice dialogue!
The gospel message is disarmingly clear. It may be the most clear message in scripture. What we DO with that message (our response to God’s demonstration of His love, mercy and grace towards us), is the less clear thing.
I think it’s clear in the scriptures, but it’s not clear to those who want to apply it, as they seem to want to add or take away something as it just seems too simple.
Jesus is the answer. Most of us agree about that. But is He the savior to one who will not accept his gift? Yes, and no. His death is sufficient to pay for everyone’s sins. But, if we reject his gift, we choose to pay for our own sins. That would dictate that while Jesus COULD be a rejector’s savior, He ends up not being that savior with respect to the rejector.
The Calvanism/Arminianism debate is energized, but not necessarily fruitful. Was Jesus a Calvanist? (tongue in cheek)
Scripture is pretty clear that without God’s opening our eyes, we can’t and won’t understand His revelation to us, as we prefer darkness rather than light and we view scripture as foolishness.
So, God initiates, and He opens our eyes. Now we can see and understand it from His perspective. That alone is not enough. We have responsibility to do something with that new revelation. There is a difference between knowing OF Christ and knowing Christ. If we choose to leave it at knowing OF Christ, we are still facing a dark eternity. If we choose to know Christ, we are responding properly, with the concomitant eternal inheritance.
Romans is a very hard book. Chapters 9 through 11 appear to conflict. That likely is our inability to fully comprehend. How is it that one chapter says God grants mercy to whom He chooses and hardens whom He hardens, and the next chapter says that if we confess with our mouth and believe in our hearts that Jesus is Lord and God has raised Him from the dead we will be saved? Is it God’s mercy and grace that saves me or is it my confession of Him as my savior that saves me? Or is it actually somehow both?
To me, there are the essentials that should be clear, and the lesser (but not insignificant) things about which we might disagree without jeopardizing unity or fellowship.
If we are called to be known as His disciples by our love for one another, then if we’re infighting and arguing, we likely don’t attract anyone to Christ. That central point is what Satan chooses to attack. If he can get us arguing and fighting, then while he loses the war, he might win the battle for a soul here or there.
I expect we all can agree that not all answers are crystal clear. However, that said, the gospel message SHOULD be clear. It is that rare topic where scripture is clear that anyone who preaches a gospel other than what was taught should be accursed. I can’t take that lightly. That focuses my vision to making sure the gospel I embrace and present should be consistent with the one presented by the apostles.
Last but not least, consider whether the Calvanist/Aminian debate is misguided in the sense that both groups may find themselves inclined to want to weigh in on whether someone ELSE is saved. That is not our task.
If I see someone who professes faith Christ but who shows no fruit or evidence of that faith, it’s not necessarily wrong for me to privately challenge him to revisit his relationship with Christ, as my friend’s eternal destiny may be in the balance. For me to tell him (or anyone else) that I’ve concluded that he’s not saved may simply result in an argument and still leave him in that eternally delicate position.
Proclaim Christ. Proclaim Him crucified. Proclaim Him raised from the dead. Proclaim Him at God’s right hand, positioned to come again. Proclaim Him the perfect King and Judge and Ruler.
… and walk humbly with my brothers and be committed to loving in a uniting way…
That means I have to look at my “hills” and eliminate many of them as unworthy of “dying on” (excuse the poor grammar).

Footnote:
It is baffling how God can be totally sovereign and still give us “free will” to choose Christ. Can both exist? If so, is it troubling that we can’t fully understand it?
Scripturally speaking, it seems pretty clear that God is moving behind the scenes. Not only that, God is moving the scenes that He is behind!
It also seems pretty clear that man has a responsibility to respond to Christ. “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.” “whosoever believe on Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” “If you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.”
I don’t think I came to Christ without the Holy Spirit’s opening my eyes. I may have been free to choose otherwise, but I didn’t. So, was it irresistible for me? Probably.
Still, God drew me to His Son. I chose Him. I’ve confessed with my mouth and believe in my heart. I’m secure.
All that said, what I still don’t understand is WHY HE DID IT. I love that He did. I’m glad that He did. I’ll likely never recover. I’m glad He’s not like I likely would be if I were God.

“Jesus is the answer. Most of us agree about that.”
This is the only crystal clear message I cling to everyday!
I just think it’s important to always be wrestling with and questioning our understanding and interpretation of the scriptures, and its meaning and application for our lives. This seems to be the example Jesus gives us in the gospels constantly challenging they way his disciples looked at the ancient scriptures and how they lived them out!
I love the way of thinking by many of the reformers in the early 17th century represented in this “mantra” of the first reformers.
“Ecclesia reformata semper reformanda est secundu Verbum Dei” (the reformed Church must be always reforming according to the Word of God)
Here is a quote from Martin Luther -
“I shall never be a heretic; I may err in dispute, but I do not wish to decide anything finally; on the other hand, I am not bound by the opinions of men.”
Also systematic theology suggests that we must always adhere to a position that allows us to “break away” from or depart from our particular churches dogmas so that if errors are sensed someone (namely us if we believe it to be in error) can seek proper remedy. After all isn’t this view of thinking and following God why we can thank the early reformers; those who were bold enough to breakaway from the obvious errant doctrine of a corrupt and morally suspect Roman church?
Finality in our approach to God and understanding His word is a danger many people fall into and I think make us unapproachable to the world and predictable at best to the church! If Paul held his position on the gospel and how he viewed God, maybe our New Testament would just have fewer books.
The Jewish culture is filled with wonder and awe for God and the many different sides of His scriptures that can only be seen if we are willing to question, wonder, and turn it in such a way that we see its different shapes, colors, and forms.
So keep turning the word, wrestle with it, ask it hard questions…God is not scared. True faith comes when we don’t have all of the answers crystal clear and we can still look to God willing to follow no matter what. My life has been turned upside down by God’s word and my current circumstances. I have found myself in positions that challenged my entire belief system and forced me to wrestle with scriptures like I had never before, and to my surprise I found many things I was taught and held to, to be wrong in many ways. With a new perspective on life, I have found myself dealing with my current suffering in a way that honors God and has turned my faith into a locked measure that clings to who Jesus is, and not what He does for me. Because when everything doesn’t go your way, can you still hold onto His hand, tell Him you love and trust Him no matter what it looks like?
Peace
Tony

Tony…
Right on.
A pastor I had while growing up had three words by which he was known… “but there’s more!”
He would present a passage and light bulbs would turn on everywhere, and we would go… “Cool!” or “Wow!” Then he’d say his trademark 3 words… and he’d show us more… and we’d do it all over again..
About the time we would think, that’s all there could be, he’d say it again, and show more. He trained us to search the living and active Word of God and EXPECT more… and we were never let down.
God is not limited on how he can use His word to impact us. So when you say, “keep turning the word, wrestle with it, ask it hard questions…God is not scared. True faith comes when we don’t have all of the answers crystal clear and we can still look to God willing to follow no matter what.”, my response is, Amen Bro.. keep on preaching.
We should wrestle with scripture, search it, gain meaning from it. However, in doing so, we should protect the unity of the body of Christ that is comprised of believers of many different denominations. Let the Word transform ME. And let the Word transform YOU. And, let God be the architect of how he transforms each of us to conform to the image of His Son.
But let’s not allow ourselves to become divided by petty disagreements and give the enemy a foothold that causes seekers to stumble in their quest to fill that God-shaped void in their lives.
That said, there ARE hills to die on. There are scriptural points that are not negotiable. There are truths that are crystal clear. We should NOT be tolerant of ALL views and perspectives. That is OVER correction. Scripture does teach that separation of fellowship is the proper consequence in SOME situations. Knowing the difference? God give us wisdom! We need it!

Reconciler,
I too think that we don’t waiver on certain points of our faith, and most people will probably agree, but the problem then arises, what do you not waiver on and what do I not waiver on.
Back to the blog…Bell’s talk may carry some ideas that are foreign to many believers, but I don’t think this is all together bad. If you listen to him regularly, I don’t think he denies salvation through Jesus, The atonement and the sacrifice of Jesus as our once and for all answer for sin, etc. He was not trying to answer the sin problem in the talk.
I think he recognizes sin, and it’s stronghold on humanity…but so we really need to mention it in every sermon, every talk…if your on stage tell people they are in sin, need jesus, just repent today and all will be fine?
I prefer the approach that talks about sin and it’s harm in our lives, and then invite people to repent (or return) to a life God has for us, living in His shadow, His spirit in and through us, changing the way we think, live, and act everyday. The message of Jesus is one that should provoke us to live more like Him and in turn effect those around us!

All Rob did was present the gospel in a model similar to what paul did in Acts 17. In that text paul doesn’t mention sin or humanity’s separation from God. He mentions repentance but only in relation to humanity worshiping idols not sin . why did Paul do this? Because he was speaking in a language that was familiar with his listeners. If you listen to other teaching By Rob Bell he deals with sin.

Wow. There’s a lot here, both in criticism and apology. I thought I might take a stab at Justin’s Question #2 for Rob Bell. Of course, I’m not Rob Bell, I would have put that under my name if I was. But a friend recently passed along an article by James Torrance that was printed by Intervarsity press in 1997. It would be an explanation of repentance that would “jive” with Bell’s preaching on propitiation and atonement.
The Article reads:
“Few distinctions in theology are more important for our understanding of worship than that discussed by Calvin in Book Three of the Institutes, between what he calls ‘legal repentance’ and ‘evangelical repentance’ in his critique of the medieval sacrament of penance. Legal repentance says: ‘Repent, and if you repent you will be forgiven!’ as though God our Father has to be conditioned into being gracious! It makes the imperatives of obedience prior to the indicatives of grace, and regards God’s love and forgiveness and acceptance as conditional upon what we do – upon our meritorious acts of repentance. Calvin argued that this inverted the evangelical order of grace, and made repentance prior to forgiveness, whereas in the New Testament forgiveness is logically prior to repentance. Evangelical repentance, on the other hand, takes the form: ‘Christ has borne your sins on the cross, therefore repent! Receive his forgiveness in repentance!’ That is, repentance is our response to grace, not a condition of grace. The goodness of God leads us to repentance.1 The good news of the gospel is that ‘there is forgiveness with God that he might be feared’2, and that he has spoken that word of forgiveness in Christ on the cross. That word summons from us an unconditional response of faith and repentance.
What did Calvin mean by saying that forgiveness is logically prior to repentance? The point is of fundamental importance in our personal relationships. If two people have the misfortune to quarrel, and one comes to the other and says, in all sincerity: ‘I forgive you!’ it is clearly not only a word of love and reconciliation, but also a word (perhaps a withering word) of condemnation – for in pronouncing his forgiveness, he is clearly implying that the other party is the guilty party! Indeed it can be very hurtful, if not self-righteous, to say to somebody: ‘I forgive you!’ How would the other person be likely to react? I could imagine his immediate reaction as one of indignation. Sensing the element of judgment, of condemnation in the word, he might well reject the forgiveness, because he refuses to submit to the guilty verdict implied in it. He would be impenitent. There would be no change of heart. But suppose on subsequent reflection he comes back to his friend and says; ‘You were quite right! I was in the wrong!’ Implicit in his acceptance of love and forgiveness he would be submitting to the verdict of guilty. There would be a real change of mind, an act of penitence on his part (metanoia), conversion, reconciliation. ”
I just wanted to pass this along. i would agree with the observation that Rob Bell does not clearly give his view on sin and repentance, and I do feel that when trying to communicate the gospel, one must address the issue of sin. It is indeed the reason Jesus died. I am not implying that Rob Bell does not believe this, I just feel he should include it with his message.
I feel that Rob is reading Romans 1-8 and Ephesians 1-3 through and interpretation specific to Hebrews. His interpretations stem out of the idea that we all (all humans) are “In Christ” through the analogy of Melchizedek. That by Abraham submitting to Melchizedek and offering his tithe, Aaron also did this. Therefore we are all “in Christ” because of his propitiation. Therefore when Paul addresses his audience in Romans and Ephesians, he is indeed talking about all of us: those “In Christ”. A great criticism on Romans with a reflection of Melchizedek is Watchman Nee’s “A Normal Christian Life”.
I have many more ideas on this subject as well, including ideas centered around Neo-orthodoxy and limited atonement vs. actual atonement, but I would venture to believe this is where Rob Bell is coming from. I do think he believes in hell, a separation from the truth of Christ, but is able to reconcile this and all of his beliefs through evangelical repentance.
Thanks for the post.
I have enjoyed the dialogue.

Karl, I agree that Rob’s message had some similarity of approach with Paul’s message to the Athenians in Acts 17, but I think Paul’s Acts 17 teaching did address sin. In Acts 17 Paul issued a call to repentance and spoke of God’s judgment. And I don’t think it works to argue that Paul’s call to repentance didn’t address sin, only idolatry. Idolatry is sin. Idolatry lies at the very heart of what sin is, as the OT & NT, especially the second of the ten commandments, bear out.

You mentioned the “anger” of God. Was that seen inside the hall with this heretic preaching his flowery universalist BS or was God’s wrath displayed on the streets with the protesters?
Are we not the smell of judgment to the world? Why do “Christians” so despise portrayals of God’s disfavor and yet wait in line to sip suds with a heretic?
I consider myself a “Bell insider” and have concluded that as Polycarp would say, when I see Rob Bell “I recognize the firstborn of Satan”. -Mike

Rob Bell made last week’s issue of TIME magazine.

Take a look at a discussion I am having about this tour. I think Rob needs to explain one of his points from this tour.
http://peterzog.blogspot.com

Interesting read, Dr. Buzzard. Sounds like it would have been a good set-up for the doctrine of propitiation.

Brendt, I agree with everything you wrote and will not re-write it in my own word here. I just want to tell you all this. I agree with other writers that just because he didnt speak about certain things during his talk doesnt mean he doesnt believe it. I think its easy for people to pick apart a small part of something Rob (or anyone) is trying to present and interpret it differently. I have attended Mars Hill for years and Rob has answered many of the questions posted here in his sermons.
My point I want to make is this. Rob Bell is helping change this world for the better. He has a passion to help people and he has been able to help me by seeing God work through him. This guy gives his heart to helping. I have seen countless people transforming their lives for the better because they have become Christians. For me personally, the words he was able to convey to me in a series he did on Food made a huge difference in my life. I had an eating disorder for 26 years and because of Rob being able to articulate that the life I was living wasnt what God had planned for me and that how I take care of my body is a spiritual thing.. Nothing else helped me in 26 years and I would have died from my eating disorder. It was God working through Rob that truly made the difference. You can multiply my experience by thousands of lives that have been transformed for the better.
Rob lives what he preaches… He lives in a small house in the inner city in Grand Rapids in areas most people would be afraid of. He walks his kids to school and last I knew he was down to one car for the family. There are many more examples I could give… One of the things I like most about him is that when he preaches, you can see his heart…and its a great big one full of love and passion for people, and a passion to serve and use the gifts God has given him. He isnt perfect and doesnt have it all nailed down and he will be the first one to tell you that.
Justin thanks for your post. You were respectful and thoughtful in what you wrote and I am sure Rob would love to sit down with you and have a long intimate conversation about your questions, about life, God, and what matters.
Love does Win.

Justin – Thanks for the clarity in your blog. It gave me peace.
Tara Lynn

Justin,
Thank you for your thoughts on this. I was impressed by your generosity and humility. Thank you for not attacking Bell like a mad man. You were firm without being overbearing-this is what it is going to take to have a hearing with those who have been deceived by much of those who have bought into a feel-good gospel.
Jimmy

forgive me if this idea was already stressed in the comments (or the last third of your message) as I did not have time to read through the extensive writing. I read a similar idea from the observation of another pastor who attended one of Bell’s shows (although he was more irrate and not as humble as you were being in your critique). I would like you to take a close look at the amount of elegance and charisma that Bell speaks with, what keeps people intrigued and attentive to an hour and a half long sermon. My proposition is that I think what you’re frustrated at (not completely illustrating and verbalizing the connection between Jesus and our sin) was not necessary to be said in what he was trying to get across. This tour attracts church people. I found out about the tour through church and the local Christian radio station. It wasn’t being broadcasted over all the “secular” radio stations. Therefore, church-going-people probably hear that message ALL THE TIME. It’s essential, it’s everything, yes, I know of it’s utter importance. I get to hear it weekly at my church. Basically what I’m saying is, I’m willing to bet that the majority of people who attend these shows are smart enough to make the connection that Bell didn’t spell out (and he already brings everything down to the “average person’s” level to begin with). People get frustrated when they’re spoonfed things that they already know, and it kills everything that came prior to. It’s just like a good movie. How many times have you watched a movie, then at the end the director decided that you needed to have a vivid picture of how this all ties together b/c you’re not smart enough to make the connections? Bell is not only a pastor and writer, he’s an artist. He realizes what it takes to get people’s attention. Look at this Nooma videos. The videos come with a theme. Each theme addresses a topic. If each one of them would end with “we’re all sinners and separated from God, but Christ came to bridge that gap… all you got to do is say a pray and be saved…”, that would become a monotonous series of tapes, and I would tend to think that if I watched one, then I’ve seen them all. They would all have different intros, but the same endings. See, b/c being a Christian is more than that. Christ coming as a sacrafice for our sins is the core, BUT there is soooooo much more than that… NOT more important, but just more. I’ve come to see that the more people are solely adament on delivering that message, the more Christians feel that’s the ONLY message they need. Since that message is the core of the Bible, then wouldn’t you tend to think that we would want to work on everything that would help to strengthen that message, but we wouldn’t have to be told the message all over everytime we met for a teaching? Let’s use a metaphor: if you’re a seasoned basketball player, does your coach teach you how to play basketball at every practice? Or, do you assemble with your team and go over strategy and drills and procedures and constant habitual development? I just think that too many times we get stuck on trying to teach it all in one little piece and what we are doing is confining God to this little box and saying this is all that really matters, and we lose sight of the fact that EVERYTHING matters and we should portray that as so.
Just a thought (but a passionate one). I hope it made sense. Sorry to make it long and drawn out.
peace,
Brandon

Very insightful post. I enjoyed reading it. It nice to find someone who is “wise” in their critique of others.
As to some who question Rob Bell’s salvation, the seem rather ignorant and arrogant. You obviously do not seem to do this.
My only statement against what you said is in relation to Rob’s removal of the idea of “sin” from their theology.
In their own doctrinal statements it states that “The enemy
tempted the first humans, and darkness and evil entered the story through human sin and are now a part of the world. This devastating event resulted in our relationships with God, others, ourselves, and creation being fractured and in desperate need of redeeming.”
It then states that “Jesus is our only hope for bringing peace and reconciliation between God and humans. Through Jesus we have been forgiven and brought into right relationship with God.”
Though not put in traditional terms this seems to be clear about a few things: man has sinned, and our redemption is is through Jesus.”
Sometimes I think we get too hung up on specific theology, or bothered that others don’t spend as much time on them as we do.
Lastly, I enjoy reading this because of it’s thoughtful and thought provoking nature. It will provide me some enjoyable critical thinking for the next few days!

It may be far too late to add anything of value to this discussion. I just happened to find it through the grapevine.
To review, we have a bunch of people oustide a building, zealously expressing their beliefs, evangelizing in their own way. We have a man inside a building emphatically teaching the Bible in his own way. And the folks who sit in the crowd go home and post and agree about all the things that the people outside did wrong and all the things that the man inside did wrong.
If we break down John the Baptist’s teaching, we will find errors and problems. If we break down Peter’s we will find the same. And if we break down Paul and Timothy and pretty much anybody else who lacked in the Virgin Birth and dying- for-the-sin-of-the-world department we will be able to go point and counterpoint against the bodies of their work.
Every woman and man who presents the gospel according to what they’ve learned and experienced will be flawed in their thinking and in their arguments. So Rob Bell doesn’t dwell on the sinfulness of man, yet he still manages to fill rooms with people seeking a deeper understanding of the God that he loves and serves. Does that take away something from him or his teaching? Or could it be possible that his focus leans toward discipleship?
It seems to me that if you take the folks who fill stadiums to hear Billy Graham and send them straight into a theater to hear Rob Bell you would NOT be doing them a disservice. Although, you may want to have pocket dictionaries available.
After 1st grade math, nobody had to teach me addition again. It was central to what I had come to learn about math. I didn’t need to go back to Mrs. Barber in second grade to be reminded, or in third grade or even before taking college calculus. Her teaching in 1st grade was sufficient to last the rest of my life.
I get sin. As a former expert on the topic I get why the kids in my youth group seem to slip from time to time. I teach about it in our church membership classes and it always leads to interesting conversations. I also get redemption. And that’s the focus of the message that we teach our kids, followed by discipleship, because that’s what we hope for our kids. That’s what we want them to be. We aren’t training ex-sinners, we’re trying to make disciples.
Ex-sinners will go out into the world and make more ex-sinners. Disciples will go out into the world and focus on the other part of the message.

Chris,
The gospel, the cross, the life and death of Jesus Christ is not first grade math. It is not addition. It may seem an inch wide but it is a mile deep.
The need and depth of the gospel is as varied as life itself. In it lies the answer to every problem. I suspect that if you were to approach God and say “God, I’m past the Jesus part, the atonement part, the part about our sin. Tell me what you’re really like, I want to know you MORE in a DEEPER way…” He would point you back to Jesus and say “There is no next chapter, he is the way the truth and the life, none come to me except through Him”
There is a huge difference between “everyone makes mistakes” and leaving out a truth about our sin that is central to why Jesus HAD to come. John, Peter, and Paul made mistakes… but none of them had any disillusions about our sinfulness to which the wages of sin is death.
It is our sin that makes it obvious we don’t need a loving teacher, we need a Savior.

I loved some of the comments posted here. As the guy who was wearing the Turn Or Burn Shirt (Luke 13:5). The Bible say the spiritual man judges all things and yet is judged by no man. Jesus said we who are born again who have His spirit can judge all by their fruit. You need to consider Matthew chapter 7, Jesus said of those who profess Him to be Lord only a few will enter into the kingdom of heaven. You can draw near to Jesus with your lips and honor Him with your words,but your heart is far from Him. Those of you who think Rob Bell is born again and have read his books, you are deceived. Jesus said the wheat would grow up with the tares, but this is so obviuous. I am loving my neighbor by warning of the dangers of Hell. I love God with all my heart mind soul and strength. The one who is born of God does not continue to sin. If you love Robs words more than Jesus you need to repent. Are you foolish or wise virgins. Do you love the praise of men more than the praise of God. Jesus said woe to you when all men speak well of you. Those of you who think the preaching of the cross is foolishness are on the broad path. I would love to meet some of you who live in San Francisco area. Would love to have you come out to preach with me on the streets of San Francisco.

Turn or Burn,
I think there is a great deal of distortion of scripture in your comment. One of them is:
“The one who is born of God does not continue to sin”
This is not only unbiblical but untrue. As long as we are alive on this earth, we will continue to sin. And even if we can last a day without sinning in our actions we do so in our hearts.
That quote is the source of a great deal of distortion and false teachings.
Your words say “God’s judgement is coming” but your attitude makes me feel like you are doing the judging. Almost like it brings you joy to know you are part of a narrow path, elite and set apart.
Your words convey that you only wish to alert non believers out of love, that your heart breaks for them because we are all wretches but yet for some reason through sheer grace you have been saved. But the way you go about it reminds me of the Pharisee at them temple in Luke 18:10.
“11The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
13″But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
14″I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
I, a fellow sinner prays for you.

The Bible says in 1 John: He that is born of God does not continue to sin!

“”These guys were jerks. I’d never want to hang out with these guys. Unless, of course, I had the opportunity to show them (inflict upon them) my favorite mixed martial arts move, the move I refer to as “the turn or burn.” Ask me about it sometime.”"
Are you loving your neighbor!

Stumbled on to your blog
good stuff
interesting comments by everyone, so excuse me for my elementary thinking when I ask these questions.
in regards to Jesus’ love for us (John 3:16 and other quotes about believing)
Is Jesus Only Saviour?
Is He not Lord also?
Mat 4:19 And he said to them, “Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.”
what does it mean to follow Jesus? is it to just believe and accept His love? If so why did the people from the feeding of the 5000 go away sad and mad? Did Jesus not express His love towards them?
Luk 14:27 “Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
Mat 10:38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
Mar 10:21 And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
Joh 12:26 If anyone serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there will my servant be also. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him.
Luk 14:33 “So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.
Luk 17:33 Whoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it.
It seems there is a call to put Jesus above everything else. What this has to do with the Rob Bell blog I think I must have forgot by now especially after putting so much scripture.
(Excuse all the scriptures , but Everyday I am blown away as Jesus reveals His will through His Word.)
Shalom

Justin,
that link takes so much of what Rob Bell said out of context.
I should write something up to expose the errors in that author’s ‘so-called’ errors.

I have friends who went and saw Rob in Cleveland, Ohio. They came back with the same conclusion as Justin. I read Velvet Elvis and felt very uncomfortable about it. I just kept thinking that his way of looking at the Bible is “dangerous”.

wow. that sounds like a great tour. i wish i could have attended. you make a good point that rob doesnt emphasize sin a whole lot. i wonder if he was simply emphasizing other aspects in this particular event, of if he was neglecting the truth of the matter.

First, I’m not an apologist for Rob Bell or his church, Mars Hill Bible Church. I do think Bell has a bog soft sell on. While I would want him to provide more direct paths, that’s his choice, but I read several threads through here that questioned whether he believed in the sinful condition of man and his need for atonement through Christ’s sacrifice. Anyway, here’s a direct quote from one of Bell’s sermons:
Rob Bell – My Deliverance 2/24/08
“For us as Christians, we begin with the fundamental assumption that there is something wrong with the world. And what we find wrong with the world, we find it deep within ourselves. That sin has entered into the human story. Each one us carries around a heart that is deeply bent and warped. Our explanation of that would be sin. Because of that, our world is in bondage to the same darkness same warped spirit of sin. We operate under the assumption that God loves us and has not given up on human beings, but has rescued us through Jesus. That Jesus coming among us — teaching and then being executed on a cross was God’s rescue effort for the human race — for all of creation. And for us, it is Jesus absorbing, taking the worst that human beings can do to each other, taking all of our sins, dying and then rising again — conquering the worst that can happen to any of us, which is death. And for us, the heart of being a Christian is that we are sinners and we are saved purely by the Grace of God.”
I don’t give Bell a free pass. Clearly on one his videos, he incorrectly interprets an important passage of scripture (Bullhorn – Nooma). But because he gets on thing wrong doesn’t make him a heretic. I would have been burned at the stake a long time ago about my mis-interpretations of scripture if that were the case.
Anyway, one of the comments from above questioned Bell’s salvation. Come on, don’t you think that is extremely presumptuous and judgmental? You have such insights into the hearts of men? Come on.
I think the gentle and loving rebuke is the way we’ve been instructed to proceed.
God bless,
Andy

Thanks for the good post :)
I’m not sure you’ll get this with all of the comments, but I thought I’d recommend the book “Victory Over the Darkness” to you.
It is an excellent book which focuses on positional and progressive sanctification and why a proper view of these is necessary for a victorious Christian life. Basically it says that though we still sin we, who have accepted Christ, are no longer considered sinners. It gets strongly into our “new creation” identity in Christ.

I was directed to your blog by a friend who said that you’d commented on Rob Bell’s stop in San Francisco. I couldn’t help but notice, as astute as I am, that although it was possibly unintententional, there are two key subjects here. The man inside, and “the men outside”.
I’ve read as far as the March 08th comment of Bill. I was thinking pretty much the same thing.
“”These guys were jerks. I’d never want to hang out with these guys. Unless, of course, I had the opportunity to show them (inflict upon them) my favorite mixed martial arts move, the move I refer to as “the turn or burn.” Ask me about it sometime.”"
Are you loving your neighbor! —-
So, Justin, I’m asking about it…if that is the “spirit of humility” that you are showing us as the man (the Justin) outside the hall, what is the man (Justin) really like on the inside?
To Tony,
Sin is not a “problem”, like a bad hair day, halitosis or pimples. Sin is a deadly disease that we’re all infected with.

CJ, that comment made by Justin was clearly satirical and tongue-in-cheek..

Credit … is the only enduring testimonial to man’s confidence in man.
– James Blish
—————————————————————————————————-
http://xanga.com/simonstokesns

I appreciate your comments about Rob Bell. I can tell that you and I are like minded in many things. But, that being said, I have a comment/question for you concerning your take on this TGAA teaching.
Whenever I read anything that criticizes Rob Bell’s teaching it’s always about “what he didn’t say” and not what he said. You said often in your response to his TGAA teaching that you liked what he had to say. But, then you said you didn’t like what he didn’t say. I’m not sure that I can jump on board with criticizing somebody’s teaching for something they didn’t say.
Say my pastor didn’t preach about hell this week. Does that mean he doesn’t believe in the Orthodox Christianity understanding of hell? I don’t think so. I don’t think it’s necessary to lay out every single bullet point of Christianity every time somebody preaches the Gospel. Do you?
I guess my question is: Was there something that Rob actually said that you don’t agree with, or, was it just the stuff he didn’t say?
This may sound like I’m attacking you, and I hope it doesn’t come across like that. I just wanted to know your thoughts on this question. By the way, I went and heard this teaching as well and I absolutely loved it. And, in the interest of disclosure, I’m a sucker for Open Theistic thoughts (dealing with God’s interaction with Man) and I’m always bent to listening to things dialectically. Thanks.

I’m months late and no one is going to read this far (It is late and night and I can’t sleep, so that is why I am posting on old blogs), but, in case anyone does read this…
People keep questioning the motives of the guys with the signs outside of the door, and, just so you know, those guys are always out there in SF and they have very little love in their hearts. They just want to yell at people.
No, I don’t know them personally nor have I ever spoken to them, but I’ve watched them every time I go to SF, and they are always out yelling at people and people are always not listening.
So there.
I said it.
Now I feel better.
Good night.

It called preaching, did Jesus speak softly to 5000 man as well as the women and children that were with them.
Kayrooso- do a word study as to what preach actually means. In america we call someone a preacher who sits behind a pulpit.

Rob’s exact words, “For the first Christians it was’nt about what you could do to get God on your side. It was, ‘do you understand what God has already done!’”
Now if that is not Gospel proclamation then I don ‘t know what is…
Also Justin you I would hope you realize as a Fuller grad (I am one too) that the Bible does not just speak of atonment as penal substitution–God pouring wrath on his son for us. In fact Paul and the earliest churches spoke of Christ conquering the curse of death and disarming the powers and principalties, reconciling all things, and the result is a new humanity

This is so old, I don’t know why I’m responding. But… if I went to my doctor and he told me how great my weight was, how healthy my blood work was, how perfect my blood pressure was, etc etc. but failed to mention an ugly-looking mole that looked just like melanoma on my back, I’d probably sue for malpractice. Sometimes what we DON’T say is more important than what we DO say.

I agree with you. Though Rob makes great points in many ways, he also ignores some pretty important things.. whether or not he intends to. The only thing that concerns me is that people may hang on to his every single word and lose sight of some of the basic scriptural truths. Having said that, I am a huge Rob Bell fan, and I think he does provide some great insights on deeper menaings of the culture of Jesus’ day and really does an amazing job of relating the “community” side of Christianity, which is very easily forgotten (although it is plainly written all over Acts).
Thanks for your post, always good to see someone who can critique without criticizing. It troubles me that many pastors spend more time insulting other pastors than they do preaching the Gospel.

Brandon I get your last point. But Pastors have a responsibility to spend a portion of their time defending the Gospel, even if that means challenging a fellow pastor.

Justin,
Thanks for your insightful, articulate and humane critique — all three qualities sometimes lacking in our discourse — of Bell. Keep up the good communication,
A new fan here in the UK,
Gavin

I’m not so sure on the idea that it is a clear and foundational teaching of Christianity that the concept of “sin” as the author understands it lies at the heart of Salvation. The understanding of sin seems to be limited to what upon examination reveals itself to be symptoms of sin. Sin is not mere acts of breaking moral law and repentance is not simply asking for forgiveness and changing the way you behave. Sin is primarily a condition that resulted from man’s decision to believe a lie about the nature of God and his own humanity. Our morally deviant behavior is the symptom of an inner spiritual condition and that condition has more to do with how we see God and ourselves and less to do with making apologies and excercising will power to change. Holy behavior is the logical outworking of right spiritual perception. We don’t become intimate with God as the reward for repenting of our sins. Intimacy with God is the very purifying power itself which remedies our inner condition of sin Intimacy with God is the end all be all of Christian faith NOT sin consciousness. But what about our sins? Well, what about the presence of God? What about focusing on that? Is evil anything other than the negation of good? Is evil not dissipated by a focusing of the heart upon that which is good? Christians should spend less time giving attention to how our sins must be dealt with and more time exploring how to cultivate a consciousness of Divinity. The deviant forms of behavior which stem from our spiritual blindness will take care of themselves.

Also, I’m not so sure how I feel about thelogians/preachers who are quick to critique a man’s message on the grounds that he doesn’t talk about sin enough. Is being aware of how much a sinner you are really a prerequsite for Intimacy with God? I’m trying to question a very popular assumption here. If we are being saved FROM sin, then what are we being saved FOR? Is it not a life of eternal quality and intimacy with God? Why is it considered weak, heretical, and compromising for someone to focus on what we have been saved FOR? If a man is made to understand his purpose, does he need to be told that he hasn’t been living it up until the point of that revelation? If you show someone their sins, that doesn’t necessarily make them love God. If, however, you impart into a man’s heart the beautific vision of God, then he will immerse himself so deeply in the life of the Creator, that he will lose his mindfulness of and interest in sin. Light and darkness CAN’T dwell togther. This is not a rule to be followed, it’s a principle that could not be otherwise. Focusing on, wrestling with, talking about, and theologizing about darkness is no gaurantee that light will be embraced. However, turning on the lights will ALWAYS expel the darkness. Theologians complaining that guys like Rob Bell are not discussing sin enough is like complaining that electricians are not talking about darkness enough. I say “great”. That’s there job. There job is to give light, restore light, be bearers of light. “Oh, c’mon brother. Darkness is a reality.” It is a reality. Only in places where we have failed to bring light. So what should we be talking about then? How dark it is over there? or how to get some light over there? “but people will never embrace the light unless you show them they’re in darkness.” That’s completely wrong. People only know the extent of their darkness after they have received a vision of the Glorious Light. Once they see and receive the light, they will then speak of how dark it once was. If we talk more about people’s true identity and purpose in God, we wont have to discuss their sins. They will discuss them. There is no possible way you can show a wrong man the right way without him saying “darn. I must’ve been wrong.” It’s a lot easier to just tell people they need God because they’re wrong or doomed. It takes more creativity, patience, and passion to stir a genuine interest in God. Maybe we don’t find God to be as interesting,beautiful, and satisfying as the Bible says he is. Maybe that is why we have such a hard time creating genuine interest in and passion for our God. So maybe we just fall back on pointing out to them their errors and sins. If they don’t repent..well at least we did our job. Their lack of interest COULDN”T be a reflection of just how unenviable my walk with God is. It must be their sinfulness.

Question: Is being aware of how much a sinner you are really a prerequsite for Intimacy with God?
Answer: Yes
Intimacy with God comes from accepting Jesus as your Savior.
Accepting Jesus as your Savior comes from being aware of the depth of your sin and the need for Jesus in your life.

The isolation of my question from the other questions and points which followed it result in an overly simplistic answer. The real issue is “Do we as Christians need to be the ones who produce that awareness? or is that awareness the logical outworking of having one’s attention directed towards the beauty of life in God?” Are people like Rob Bell really selling others short when they focus on the life God has created us to live rather than on how sinful we are?
When my question is placed back in its broader context of seeking to know what our focus should be (especially since the Rob Bell critics seem to have a major issue with his failure to talk about sin enough), this answer seems to be insufficient in addressing that larger issue. The questions which IMMEDIATELY FOLLOW are not addressed. Neither were the points which followed.
I repeat them:
If we are being saved FROM sin, then what are we being saved FOR? Is it not a life of eternal quality and intimacy with God? Why is it considered weak, heretical, and compromising for someone to focus on what we have been saved FOR? If a man is made to understand his purpose, does he need to be told that he hasn’t been living it up until the point of that revelation? If you show someone their sins, that doesn’t necessarily make them love God. If, however, you impart into a man’s heart the beautific vision of God, then he will immerse himself so deeply in the life of the Creator, that he will lose his mindfulness of and interest in sin.
My question is “why should or would someone care to “know that they are a sinner, in need of a substitute to accept the punishment for their sins?” Is the answer not “because sin seperates them from the very One they were created for?” What’s my point? I think you have it backwards. Being told that you’re missing the mark (sin) is irrelevant to anyone who doesn’t have a concept of what their target (ie. goal, purpose) is supposed to be in the first place. You have to give people a vision of the Goal before they can grasp the fact that they are not hitting it. Otherwise, there is no reference point for them to measure the quality of their lives against. It is not possible to successfully show a wrong man the right way without him realizing that he must be doing something wrong. In contrast to your statement, a sinner will always view his sins as irrelevant until he begins to see those sins as an obstacle that stands between something or someone that he can be truly passionate about. Showing people how sinful they are, no matter how nicely we do it, is not assurance that they will love God. However, cultivating an interest in and a passion for God by embodying what it means to live the highest kind of life, will motivate others to seek God for themselves. When a human soul is enraptured by the beautific vision of life in God, no one will need to speak to him of sin and hell. He will understand it and depart from it for himself like a man who, after having seen light for the first time, will know that he has been living in darkness and will gladly turn from it in pursuit of a truly brighter life.
The very concept of sin presupposes some kind of purpose/meaning that sin deters us from. Without an emphasis on that, everything is in Christianity loses meaning. It is the job of the believer to point people to The Way. When people get a clear vision of The Way, they will see for themselves that they’ve been missing the whole point of life. They will come knocking on the doors of heaven singing their songs of repentance for themselves without our having to motivate them by fear or guilt. Love will compel them. A genuine interest in God will compel them. I see no substantial evidence being offered here that we need to show people their sins. No. We need to show people God. Everything else becomes clear in the light of God-awareness.
But perhaps it is easier for all of us to talk about sin. After all, that’s what we’re most familiar with. It is easy for anyone to show others the error of their ways. That doesn’t necessarily make you a good preacher or an informed theolgian

It seems that if someone doesn’t hold to penal substitution as a model of the atonement they are seen to be flawed in their theology, maybe even flawed in their walk with Christ. But I don’t see PS as a valid Christian doctrine. I don’t get it and don’t believe it makes sense when reading the Gospel.
I believe we have to get away from PS and start looking at the Atonement through a prism. There is loads going on, so one model doesn’t do it justice. PS says far too little. PS means that Jesus didn’t have to be God, he merely had to be sinless. PS doesn’t account for how Christ will draw all things in heaven and earth to himself.
I think TK makes some really good points.

I resonate with Rob Bell very well. I grew up in the conservative evangelical church and I think what Rob is trying to convey is that God is so much bigger than that. One thing that gets us evangelicals riled up is when not every service ends in an altar call for the unsaved to accept Jesus. In the hour and a half of available time for Rob to teach on his new material, perhaps he thought that the purpose behind his tour would not best be served in a call to repentance (something many of us find a little exhausting after 20 years).
I probably am going to Hell in my evangelical circle. I’ve been told I’m not going to Hell in Catholicism (probably just a good long time in purgatory). I’m probably not going to Hell according to Rob Bell, yet his teaching challenges me more than anything I’ve ever grown up around to live for Christ.

I appreciated the way you were very fair with Rob, yet held true to your concerns. One thing I am finally arriving to in my life is seeing the Church as it has become. Even with people like you (and me) and all others who blog, etc… We come off with some version of self-righteousness that just doesn’t seem biblical (as I understand the Bible). We all spend a tremendous amount of time on our differences and not on what we agree on. It has caused diversity among the Church from the beginning. Even outside the church in our politics, relationships, etc…our focus on our differences has created a world of hatred and self idolatry. I see it even in your blogs (which I enjoy, mostly) as you have your piece to say about others and the way they were able to convey a certain message, etc… With regards to Rob, I have heard him preach beautifully about the cross. The fact that he didn’t in this setting doesn’t mean that he missed anything. Maybe his strategy (remember, it is his tour, not yours) was to send a particular message to a particular type of listener. Maybe he didn’t desire to put together a lecture with a Bible interpretation message with all i’s dotted and t’s crossed. I think this world, this Church, us, and all other things have fallen short of our reason for being. We should be like Jesus. It’s that simple (we complicate it by trying to over-interpret everything). The “TRUE” message of God and Jesus can’t be miss-interpreted. The Holy Spirit in us won’t let that happen. So if we spent our focus on what we agree on and spread that message and allow others to see, like and enter His rest and life, then and only then will the Cross make sense. The minute we think that “it is finished” doesn’t mean that it is and we still have to perform, then to hell with all of us. Yes the Cross was and is about Sin, but God through Jesus made us right with Him and the punishment due us. Is this a license to sin? No. Sin then just becomes stupid with great worldly consequences even as much as the person never really being saved. Sin becomes a measure of the direction you are taking your life, NOT a measure you are judged on. The Cross is the payment for the judgment. The reason for the cross is that we couldn’t do it by ourselves. We couldn’t be good enough to be accepted, only One has been. So, by this same truth, after the cross we still can’t do it by ourselves either. So we will continue to sin. The difference becomes how we view it and what we do to pursue a life trying not to. I don’t care who you are, or what philosophy you believe, NO ONE can dispute the Bible’s message on the connection with sin / the cross / and our eternity. So to say that our Sin is still looked at by God and will be judged by God is as false a teaching as you accused Rob’s story of being. Sorry for the long post, but you seemed so serious about your need to put Rob in his place for not preaching a message quite like you would have done it when he could do the exact same to you (and me). In this type of “Church” there is no wonder the division is so strong. We continue to feel the need to be heard, prove our version of knowledge, etc… In Christ we are all the same. No more, no less than all others (not just others in our “category”). Our ability to recite scripture, understand something, talk eloquently, etc… is our own false belief in ourself, which Christ showed us by the Cross that, by ourselves, we are nothing.

A couple quick thoughts from a missionary to Africa: (1) A good case can be made from the Bible for protesting against false teaching; the OT prophets and NT apostles certainly could be severe in issuing warnings. That being said, a lot of us react strongly against the outside protesters Justin describes because of what we perceive as an ungodly attitude which mainly sees and censures others’ sin. A more biblical attitude mourns my sin first, the Church’s sin first (Ezra 9:5ff), seeking our own purification (2 Cor 7:1). Justin probably wasn’t seeing humble Christian repentance in the SF protesters. Without such humility one cannot address others’ failings in a way that winningly communicates God’s mercy (Rom 2:4). (2) Recognizing our sin, its offensiveness to a holy God, and therefore how much we’ve been forgiven is crucial for experiencing a close walk of love with God. I derive this idea from Christ’s words about those who are forgiven much, loving much, while those who are forgiven little, love little. In my own life I’ve found that only God’s sacrificial love for me in Jesus and my responding love for God (including what Chalmers once termed ‘the expulsive power of a new affection’) keeps me on track.

Great post, thank you. Rob’s church is in my hometown and I know several people that have left there with the same concerns. I have never listened to him so it was good to hear your very detailed description of the evening.
Thanks,
Sue

Isn’t it ‘For God so LOVED the world that He gave His only begotten son….’ So Rob may be emphasizing God’s love more than he is emphasizing judgment for unrepentant sin in this particular series. That doesn’t make him a ‘soothsayer’ as one comment stated above (a charge equivalent with witchcraft). Frankly, Bell has been highly instrumental in several of my coworkers and friends coming to Christ through his books and videos (and they have experienced radical transformation at every level of their lives).
Many of the comments here reflect a deeper conviction of the devil’s ability to deceive people than a conviction of the Holy Spirit’s ability to lead genuine seekers (both saved and unsaved) into all truth according to His promise. Can we not affirm how God is using Rob Bell to impact both those in the Kingdom of Heaven as well as those not yet saved with a message of God’s love for them?
Most of my friends won’t step foot in the door of a church unless its for a wedding or a funeral, and often its because they are expected to change their sinful behavior PRIOR to having had a deep experience of God’s love for them. I know more Christians who don’t sin out of fear of God’s judgment rather than out of a heart that longs to please God and a heart that doesn’t want to grieve Him. Might explain why we don’t see sinners forcing their way into the Kingdom of God these days… we don’t represent/reflect genuine peace. (‘The Kingdom of Heaven is neither meat nor drink, but righteousness, peace and joy”).
“Perfect love casts out all fear.”

I don’t know Rob…however, I have read the gospels and it strikes me that Jesus met people where they were when he spoke to them. He spoke winsome words as well as harsh ones, very direct ones, and those couched as parables, and stories… and mostly he did these at different times, suitable to the situation. I will hazard the guess that Rob Bell’s entire view of scripture isn’t contained in the talks he’s doing on this tour…and while not comparing his ministry to that of Jesus’, it’s clear reading Jesus, Paul, Peter and the other epistles that the whole of how we find salvation and find life are rarely completely and neatly packaged in a single message/sermon/talk…I look to see if seminal truth is communicated when people speak who represent Christ on earth. And whether through that people can begin to be drawn to truth and begin what for many, particularly in our post-modern culture, is a journey into the reality that God left on earth to be lived out among one another and non-believers. It’s a process and faith as well as grace say that Jesus is furthering that process through many different avenues along which he carries his truth to the lost and seeking in the journey that they are on. In short, Rob Bell, for many, is just one time of many that the Truth will begin to touch them and Jesus is the final purveyor and finisher of that process.
Just another perspective on what is a great and open discussion here.
Thanks

Can we just tell the story of christ…?
Because it is an excellent story.
Can we just love him with all of our heart and because of that love allow him to change THAT heart…?
Can we simply love everyone with the same kind of compassion and sacrifice that it took to send that man that loves us that much to the cross…?
Can we just love and forget the “but”?
Can we let God be God and because he’s God let him do all of the judging?
Can we be christians?
Please?

I wonder if Rob believed that his tour was to really show to lost sinners the “love side of the cross. I doubt sincerely that Rob has any question relative sin. Rob talks about sin quite a bit. Personally, I am of the opinion that the Holy Spirit convicts of sin – so, therefore, I would agree with the preaching of sin in order to bring repentance. Yet, Rob may so identify with the lost, God’s love for them, and may sincerely believe that the church of Jesus Christ has been “too religious” in portraying a “God of wrath”. I am not saying that I agree with him on this point. I would not agree with him, personally. But, I think this is where we pray for Rob. Because Rob Bell is a tremendous Christian who may be a little emotionally “enmeshed” with the lost in identify with the lost not so much as “in Christ” as he thinks spiritually – but rather may be “confused” and is “enmeshing” and identifying with the lost out of his own sinful nature – without realizing what he is doing. I think Rob is sincere, saved, and a little “drifting” on the point you raised. Prayer is my answer. You sound like a person who would gently and lovingly draw him back into the Spirit and out of commisserating with the lost in the ruin of sin in which they find themselves. You are a person I would personally feel comfortable “releasing” to speak with Rob Bell on that point. Others, often, would only “confirm” to him that religious Christians are “mean” – and push him further into commiseration with the lost and alienation from the elect of God in Christ, it would seem to me. They really have “gone too far” – and his reaction to them, in my opinion, has produced a reactionary error on his part in “the other direction” of “taking the side of the lost” against the church of the Lord Jesus Christ – trying to console them against what he perceives as an unjustifiable rage towards them from religious Christians. I think Rob is wrong. But equally wrong are those Christians against whom Rob Bell “counters” and by whom, in all honesty, I view Rob Bell as being thrown “off center” in his own scriptural position. They are wrong also. And I pray we can all “come to center” and come back to the cross as you see it. Rob Bell is a tremendous Christian. He may not be “completely centered” in all things – but neither are most of his Christian opponents. I’ve heard Rob Bell preach for years. He’s an incredible inspiration – and I pray for him on the points you “caught”. Grace.

i read this because you linked it on another Rob Bell conversation about Love Wins, well before the book came out.

as i was reading Love Wins, i laughed that he talks about the same event that you do in this post. protesters, San Francisco, etc.

have you read it yet?