Comments on: Rob Bell, the gods aren’t angry tour: San Francisco (Some Reflections & Concerns)

By: chris

chris — Sat, 19 Mar 2011 16:47:24 +0000

i read this because you linked it on another Rob Bell conversation about Love Wins, well before the book came out.

as i was reading Love Wins, i laughed that he talks about the same event that you do in this post. protesters, San Francisco, etc.

have you read it yet?

By: laura

laura — Fri, 01 Jan 2010 22:11:58 +0000

I wonder if Rob believed that his tour was to really show to lost sinners the “love side of the cross. I doubt sincerely that Rob has any question relative sin. Rob talks about sin quite a bit. Personally, I am of the opinion that the Holy Spirit convicts of sin – so, therefore, I would agree with the preaching of sin in order to bring repentance. Yet, Rob may so identify with the lost, God’s love for them, and may sincerely believe that the church of Jesus Christ has been “too religious” in portraying a “God of wrath”. I am not saying that I agree with him on this point. I would not agree with him, personally. But, I think this is where we pray for Rob. Because Rob Bell is a tremendous Christian who may be a little emotionally “enmeshed” with the lost in identify with the lost not so much as “in Christ” as he thinks spiritually – but rather may be “confused” and is “enmeshing” and identifying with the lost out of his own sinful nature – without realizing what he is doing. I think Rob is sincere, saved, and a little “drifting” on the point you raised. Prayer is my answer. You sound like a person who would gently and lovingly draw him back into the Spirit and out of commisserating with the lost in the ruin of sin in which they find themselves. You are a person I would personally feel comfortable “releasing” to speak with Rob Bell on that point. Others, often, would only “confirm” to him that religious Christians are “mean” – and push him further into commiseration with the lost and alienation from the elect of God in Christ, it would seem to me. They really have “gone too far” – and his reaction to them, in my opinion, has produced a reactionary error on his part in “the other direction” of “taking the side of the lost” against the church of the Lord Jesus Christ – trying to console them against what he perceives as an unjustifiable rage towards them from religious Christians. I think Rob is wrong. But equally wrong are those Christians against whom Rob Bell “counters” and by whom, in all honesty, I view Rob Bell as being thrown “off center” in his own scriptural position. They are wrong also. And I pray we can all “come to center” and come back to the cross as you see it. Rob Bell is a tremendous Christian. He may not be “completely centered” in all things – but neither are most of his Christian opponents. I’ve heard Rob Bell preach for years. He’s an incredible inspiration – and I pray for him on the points you “caught”. Grace.

By: just some guy

just some guy — Sat, 11 Apr 2009 14:26:53 +0000

Can we just tell the story of christ…?
Because it is an excellent story.
Can we just love him with all of our heart and because of that love allow him to change THAT heart…?
Can we simply love everyone with the same kind of compassion and sacrifice that it took to send that man that loves us that much to the cross…?
Can we just love and forget the “but”?
Can we let God be God and because he’s God let him do all of the judging?
Can we be christians?
Please?

By: Kimberley McKaig

Kimberley McKaig — Mon, 26 Jan 2009 00:44:06 +0000

I don’t know Rob…however, I have read the gospels and it strikes me that Jesus met people where they were when he spoke to them. He spoke winsome words as well as harsh ones, very direct ones, and those couched as parables, and stories… and mostly he did these at different times, suitable to the situation. I will hazard the guess that Rob Bell’s entire view of scripture isn’t contained in the talks he’s doing on this tour…and while not comparing his ministry to that of Jesus’, it’s clear reading Jesus, Paul, Peter and the other epistles that the whole of how we find salvation and find life are rarely completely and neatly packaged in a single message/sermon/talk…I look to see if seminal truth is communicated when people speak who represent Christ on earth. And whether through that people can begin to be drawn to truth and begin what for many, particularly in our post-modern culture, is a journey into the reality that God left on earth to be lived out among one another and non-believers. It’s a process and faith as well as grace say that Jesus is furthering that process through many different avenues along which he carries his truth to the lost and seeking in the journey that they are on. In short, Rob Bell, for many, is just one time of many that the Truth will begin to touch them and Jesus is the final purveyor and finisher of that process.
Just another perspective on what is a great and open discussion here.
Thanks

By: Ben

Ben — Wed, 24 Dec 2008 06:22:40 +0000

Isn’t it ‘For God so LOVED the world that He gave His only begotten son….’ So Rob may be emphasizing God’s love more than he is emphasizing judgment for unrepentant sin in this particular series. That doesn’t make him a ‘soothsayer’ as one comment stated above (a charge equivalent with witchcraft). Frankly, Bell has been highly instrumental in several of my coworkers and friends coming to Christ through his books and videos (and they have experienced radical transformation at every level of their lives).
Many of the comments here reflect a deeper conviction of the devil’s ability to deceive people than a conviction of the Holy Spirit’s ability to lead genuine seekers (both saved and unsaved) into all truth according to His promise. Can we not affirm how God is using Rob Bell to impact both those in the Kingdom of Heaven as well as those not yet saved with a message of God’s love for them?
Most of my friends won’t step foot in the door of a church unless its for a wedding or a funeral, and often its because they are expected to change their sinful behavior PRIOR to having had a deep experience of God’s love for them. I know more Christians who don’t sin out of fear of God’s judgment rather than out of a heart that longs to please God and a heart that doesn’t want to grieve Him. Might explain why we don’t see sinners forcing their way into the Kingdom of God these days… we don’t represent/reflect genuine peace. (‘The Kingdom of Heaven is neither meat nor drink, but righteousness, peace and joy”).
“Perfect love casts out all fear.”

By: Praise and Coffee

Praise and Coffee — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 20:46:49 +0000

Great post, thank you. Rob’s church is in my hometown and I know several people that have left there with the same concerns. I have never listened to him so it was good to hear your very detailed description of the evening.
Thanks,
Sue

By: John

John — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 16:42:23 +0000

A couple quick thoughts from a missionary to Africa: (1) A good case can be made from the Bible for protesting against false teaching; the OT prophets and NT apostles certainly could be severe in issuing warnings. That being said, a lot of us react strongly against the outside protesters Justin describes because of what we perceive as an ungodly attitude which mainly sees and censures others’ sin. A more biblical attitude mourns my sin first, the Church’s sin first (Ezra 9:5ff), seeking our own purification (2 Cor 7:1). Justin probably wasn’t seeing humble Christian repentance in the SF protesters. Without such humility one cannot address others’ failings in a way that winningly communicates God’s mercy (Rom 2:4). (2) Recognizing our sin, its offensiveness to a holy God, and therefore how much we’ve been forgiven is crucial for experiencing a close walk of love with God. I derive this idea from Christ’s words about those who are forgiven much, loving much, while those who are forgiven little, love little. In my own life I’ve found that only God’s sacrificial love for me in Jesus and my responding love for God (including what Chalmers once termed ‘the expulsive power of a new affection’) keeps me on track.

By: Sonny

Sonny — Sat, 01 Nov 2008 14:02:11 +0000

I appreciated the way you were very fair with Rob, yet held true to your concerns. One thing I am finally arriving to in my life is seeing the Church as it has become. Even with people like you (and me) and all others who blog, etc… We come off with some version of self-righteousness that just doesn’t seem biblical (as I understand the Bible). We all spend a tremendous amount of time on our differences and not on what we agree on. It has caused diversity among the Church from the beginning. Even outside the church in our politics, relationships, etc…our focus on our differences has created a world of hatred and self idolatry. I see it even in your blogs (which I enjoy, mostly) as you have your piece to say about others and the way they were able to convey a certain message, etc… With regards to Rob, I have heard him preach beautifully about the cross. The fact that he didn’t in this setting doesn’t mean that he missed anything. Maybe his strategy (remember, it is his tour, not yours) was to send a particular message to a particular type of listener. Maybe he didn’t desire to put together a lecture with a Bible interpretation message with all i’s dotted and t’s crossed. I think this world, this Church, us, and all other things have fallen short of our reason for being. We should be like Jesus. It’s that simple (we complicate it by trying to over-interpret everything). The “TRUE” message of God and Jesus can’t be miss-interpreted. The Holy Spirit in us won’t let that happen. So if we spent our focus on what we agree on and spread that message and allow others to see, like and enter His rest and life, then and only then will the Cross make sense. The minute we think that “it is finished” doesn’t mean that it is and we still have to perform, then to hell with all of us. Yes the Cross was and is about Sin, but God through Jesus made us right with Him and the punishment due us. Is this a license to sin? No. Sin then just becomes stupid with great worldly consequences even as much as the person never really being saved. Sin becomes a measure of the direction you are taking your life, NOT a measure you are judged on. The Cross is the payment for the judgment. The reason for the cross is that we couldn’t do it by ourselves. We couldn’t be good enough to be accepted, only One has been. So, by this same truth, after the cross we still can’t do it by ourselves either. So we will continue to sin. The difference becomes how we view it and what we do to pursue a life trying not to. I don’t care who you are, or what philosophy you believe, NO ONE can dispute the Bible’s message on the connection with sin / the cross / and our eternity. So to say that our Sin is still looked at by God and will be judged by God is as false a teaching as you accused Rob’s story of being. Sorry for the long post, but you seemed so serious about your need to put Rob in his place for not preaching a message quite like you would have done it when he could do the exact same to you (and me). In this type of “Church” there is no wonder the division is so strong. We continue to feel the need to be heard, prove our version of knowledge, etc… In Christ we are all the same. No more, no less than all others (not just others in our “category”). Our ability to recite scripture, understand something, talk eloquently, etc… is our own false belief in ourself, which Christ showed us by the Cross that, by ourselves, we are nothing.

By: Clayton

Clayton — Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:51:42 +0000

I resonate with Rob Bell very well. I grew up in the conservative evangelical church and I think what Rob is trying to convey is that God is so much bigger than that. One thing that gets us evangelicals riled up is when not every service ends in an altar call for the unsaved to accept Jesus. In the hour and a half of available time for Rob to teach on his new material, perhaps he thought that the purpose behind his tour would not best be served in a call to repentance (something many of us find a little exhausting after 20 years).
I probably am going to Hell in my evangelical circle. I’ve been told I’m not going to Hell in Catholicism (probably just a good long time in purgatory). I’m probably not going to Hell according to Rob Bell, yet his teaching challenges me more than anything I’ve ever grown up around to live for Christ.

By: Joe

Joe — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 11:37:29 +0000

It seems that if someone doesn’t hold to penal substitution as a model of the atonement they are seen to be flawed in their theology, maybe even flawed in their walk with Christ. But I don’t see PS as a valid Christian doctrine. I don’t get it and don’t believe it makes sense when reading the Gospel.
I believe we have to get away from PS and start looking at the Atonement through a prism. There is loads going on, so one model doesn’t do it justice. PS says far too little. PS means that Jesus didn’t have to be God, he merely had to be sinless. PS doesn’t account for how Christ will draw all things in heaven and earth to himself.
I think TK makes some really good points.

By: tk

tk — Mon, 22 Sep 2008 19:30:26 +0000

The isolation of my question from the other questions and points which followed it result in an overly simplistic answer. The real issue is “Do we as Christians need to be the ones who produce that awareness? or is that awareness the logical outworking of having one’s attention directed towards the beauty of life in God?” Are people like Rob Bell really selling others short when they focus on the life God has created us to live rather than on how sinful we are?
When my question is placed back in its broader context of seeking to know what our focus should be (especially since the Rob Bell critics seem to have a major issue with his failure to talk about sin enough), this answer seems to be insufficient in addressing that larger issue. The questions which IMMEDIATELY FOLLOW are not addressed. Neither were the points which followed.
I repeat them:
If we are being saved FROM sin, then what are we being saved FOR? Is it not a life of eternal quality and intimacy with God? Why is it considered weak, heretical, and compromising for someone to focus on what we have been saved FOR? If a man is made to understand his purpose, does he need to be told that he hasn’t been living it up until the point of that revelation? If you show someone their sins, that doesn’t necessarily make them love God. If, however, you impart into a man’s heart the beautific vision of God, then he will immerse himself so deeply in the life of the Creator, that he will lose his mindfulness of and interest in sin.
My question is “why should or would someone care to “know that they are a sinner, in need of a substitute to accept the punishment for their sins?” Is the answer not “because sin seperates them from the very One they were created for?” What’s my point? I think you have it backwards. Being told that you’re missing the mark (sin) is irrelevant to anyone who doesn’t have a concept of what their target (ie. goal, purpose) is supposed to be in the first place. You have to give people a vision of the Goal before they can grasp the fact that they are not hitting it. Otherwise, there is no reference point for them to measure the quality of their lives against. It is not possible to successfully show a wrong man the right way without him realizing that he must be doing something wrong. In contrast to your statement, a sinner will always view his sins as irrelevant until he begins to see those sins as an obstacle that stands between something or someone that he can be truly passionate about. Showing people how sinful they are, no matter how nicely we do it, is not assurance that they will love God. However, cultivating an interest in and a passion for God by embodying what it means to live the highest kind of life, will motivate others to seek God for themselves. When a human soul is enraptured by the beautific vision of life in God, no one will need to speak to him of sin and hell. He will understand it and depart from it for himself like a man who, after having seen light for the first time, will know that he has been living in darkness and will gladly turn from it in pursuit of a truly brighter life.
The very concept of sin presupposes some kind of purpose/meaning that sin deters us from. Without an emphasis on that, everything is in Christianity loses meaning. It is the job of the believer to point people to The Way. When people get a clear vision of The Way, they will see for themselves that they’ve been missing the whole point of life. They will come knocking on the doors of heaven singing their songs of repentance for themselves without our having to motivate them by fear or guilt. Love will compel them. A genuine interest in God will compel them. I see no substantial evidence being offered here that we need to show people their sins. No. We need to show people God. Everything else becomes clear in the light of God-awareness.
But perhaps it is easier for all of us to talk about sin. After all, that’s what we’re most familiar with. It is easy for anyone to show others the error of their ways. That doesn’t necessarily make you a good preacher or an informed theolgian

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Mon, 22 Sep 2008 03:50:52 +0000

Question: Is being aware of how much a sinner you are really a prerequsite for Intimacy with God?
Answer: Yes
Intimacy with God comes from accepting Jesus as your Savior.
Accepting Jesus as your Savior comes from being aware of the depth of your sin and the need for Jesus in your life.

By: Tk

Tk — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 16:43:08 +0000

Also, I’m not so sure how I feel about thelogians/preachers who are quick to critique a man’s message on the grounds that he doesn’t talk about sin enough. Is being aware of how much a sinner you are really a prerequsite for Intimacy with God? I’m trying to question a very popular assumption here. If we are being saved FROM sin, then what are we being saved FOR? Is it not a life of eternal quality and intimacy with God? Why is it considered weak, heretical, and compromising for someone to focus on what we have been saved FOR? If a man is made to understand his purpose, does he need to be told that he hasn’t been living it up until the point of that revelation? If you show someone their sins, that doesn’t necessarily make them love God. If, however, you impart into a man’s heart the beautific vision of God, then he will immerse himself so deeply in the life of the Creator, that he will lose his mindfulness of and interest in sin. Light and darkness CAN’T dwell togther. This is not a rule to be followed, it’s a principle that could not be otherwise. Focusing on, wrestling with, talking about, and theologizing about darkness is no gaurantee that light will be embraced. However, turning on the lights will ALWAYS expel the darkness. Theologians complaining that guys like Rob Bell are not discussing sin enough is like complaining that electricians are not talking about darkness enough. I say “great”. That’s there job. There job is to give light, restore light, be bearers of light. “Oh, c’mon brother. Darkness is a reality.” It is a reality. Only in places where we have failed to bring light. So what should we be talking about then? How dark it is over there? or how to get some light over there? “but people will never embrace the light unless you show them they’re in darkness.” That’s completely wrong. People only know the extent of their darkness after they have received a vision of the Glorious Light. Once they see and receive the light, they will then speak of how dark it once was. If we talk more about people’s true identity and purpose in God, we wont have to discuss their sins. They will discuss them. There is no possible way you can show a wrong man the right way without him saying “darn. I must’ve been wrong.” It’s a lot easier to just tell people they need God because they’re wrong or doomed. It takes more creativity, patience, and passion to stir a genuine interest in God. Maybe we don’t find God to be as interesting,beautiful, and satisfying as the Bible says he is. Maybe that is why we have such a hard time creating genuine interest in and passion for our God. So maybe we just fall back on pointing out to them their errors and sins. If they don’t repent..well at least we did our job. Their lack of interest COULDN”T be a reflection of just how unenviable my walk with God is. It must be their sinfulness.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 16:02:39 +0000

I’m not so sure on the idea that it is a clear and foundational teaching of Christianity that the concept of “sin” as the author understands it lies at the heart of Salvation. The understanding of sin seems to be limited to what upon examination reveals itself to be symptoms of sin. Sin is not mere acts of breaking moral law and repentance is not simply asking for forgiveness and changing the way you behave. Sin is primarily a condition that resulted from man’s decision to believe a lie about the nature of God and his own humanity. Our morally deviant behavior is the symptom of an inner spiritual condition and that condition has more to do with how we see God and ourselves and less to do with making apologies and excercising will power to change. Holy behavior is the logical outworking of right spiritual perception. We don’t become intimate with God as the reward for repenting of our sins. Intimacy with God is the very purifying power itself which remedies our inner condition of sin Intimacy with God is the end all be all of Christian faith NOT sin consciousness. But what about our sins? Well, what about the presence of God? What about focusing on that? Is evil anything other than the negation of good? Is evil not dissipated by a focusing of the heart upon that which is good? Christians should spend less time giving attention to how our sins must be dealt with and more time exploring how to cultivate a consciousness of Divinity. The deviant forms of behavior which stem from our spiritual blindness will take care of themselves.

By: Gavin McGrath

Gavin McGrath — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 11:54:22 +0000

Justin,
Thanks for your insightful, articulate and humane critique — all three qualities sometimes lacking in our discourse — of Bell. Keep up the good communication,
A new fan here in the UK,
Gavin